Stroker Renewal?

[xj-grin]

So, long story short: Coming back from Moab last month, I noticed a marked reduction in power in the XJ, like it would barely hold 60 up the passes in 4th gear. So, once home and hosed off, I brought her into the garage for some diagnostics, finger crossing, and general karma searching.

Specs: 1999 XJ, 4.6L stoker built with an accurate power kit, notorious Crane cam, solid lifters, stock valve train with heavier springs. 91k miles -- not bad for a stroker regardless.

Step 1 - compression check: 130lbs all around, except for 110 on #2, and 120 on #6. Even 130 is fairly low for a 9.5-1 stroker motor, although OK for one with this many miles. Time to pull the head.

Step 2 - head pulled, and FrankZ and I do an inspection and a couple of leak tests -- several cylinders, notably #2 and #6, but a little bit on all of them have leakage at the valves, indicating a valve job would be in order at a minimum, but unfortunately, that is not all...:thumbdn: The leakage in #2 is so severe that it is very likely it has not been providing combustion in any material way for a while (I had noticed a drop in performance before Utah, but figured my Butt-Dyno was just out of calibration)... Important to note that the cylinder walls in #6 are a bit glazed, and the carbon is cooked off the piston, indicating some steam-cleaning going on that shouldn't be.

FrankZ, being the gentleman and scholar that he is, brought over a fairly fresh head that he had lying around, if nothing else for comparative purposes, although that turns out not to be the case. Interesting that my head, an 0630 casting, is significantly different from Frank's, also a 0630 casting, although an earlier one. The water jacket outlets behind cylinder #6 on my head are roughly 1/4 inch from the combustion chamber, and are overlapping a little with the contact area for the head gasket:
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PB080186.jpg

Franks are a full 1/8 inch further away from the combustion chamber:
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PB080187.jpg

It appears that some coolant, for whatever reason, was sneaking by this weakpoint, and soaking #6 -- it may or may not have been firing, and certainly wasn't providing much in the way of oommph.

There also was a visible crack in the head at the center water jacket outlet, although it did not appear that any coolant had been making it into the #3 or 4 chambers just yet:
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PB080191.jpg

The original valve job on this head was not particularly stellar, although given that it put out 90K, I guess I can't bitch too much. Notice how the valve in combustion chamber #3 is so fully seated that there is no margin within the combustion chamber at all, compared to chamber #4 below it:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PB080189.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PB080190.jpg

SOOOOO, I have re-honed the cylinders, put the heavy valves onto my newly acquired head from Frank (muchas gracias, brother, send me a bill), and will start reassembly this week. Oh, and I found a long-suspected exhaust leak in the notorious header junction, so I'll be throwing an APN header on there while I'm at it. Lessons learned: (1)quality control in chrysler head castings leaves a bit to be desired; (2) the 4.0 (and variants) will run for a long time with a piss-poor head; (3) a 4.6 stroker will run tolerably well on 4-5 cylinders; and (4) Frank is da man.:peace:

[Frank Z]

Glad to help Chris.

Damn good info for any all to have, whether you're sportin' a stroker or a stocker.

[Stang5lgt]

My XJ had a 94 motor in it and #6 is the one that popped when I blew the head gasket. Is that the normal one to go?

[Frank Z]

Based on what Chris and I saw today, I'd have to say that the #6 would be more prone to water leakage into the cylinder than the other 5. Although the 2 head bolts (driver side only) go into the water jacket, the funky casting and a possible "loose" bolt could have been the downfall of Chris' engine.

[SurfXJSnow]

Chris, If you need help with re-assembly this week then let me know. I dont have much planned for the week and would be interested in helping out and learning a bit about rebuilding an engine. with close to 200k on the TJ, i might be doing this soon...

[Frank Z]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1013289

[Hypoid]

My XJ had a 94 motor in it and #6 is the one that popped when I blew the head gasket. Is that the normal one to go?
I think it was Troy who mentioned that #6 is furthest from the water pump, and seems to wear more than the other five. At least that is what I'm pulling out my arse tonight.

I do know this '97 in my driveway has a coolant leak in #6.

[YELLAHEEP]

I think it was Troy who mentioned that #6 is furthest from the water pump, and seems to wear more than the other five. At least that is what I'm pulling out my arse tonight.

I do know this '97 in my driveway has a coolant leak in #6.


Hold on there Sparky....... I didn't say that. Sheesh, any 'tard can figure out that #6 is farthest from the water pump...... they're at opposite ends of the block! :twak: :D

You're probably remembering me saying that the #1 cylinder is farthest from the oil pump and tends to be the one that has the rod bearings go bad. :thumbup:

[SurfXJSnow]

hit me up when you put on the intake manifold... i learned alot tonight believe it or not. Although, what you told me about strokers only lasting 60k usually... i think i might just rebuild my 4.0 when it finally dies. who knows tho.

[xj-grin]

hit me up when you put on the intake manifold... i learned alot tonight believe it or not. Although, what you told me about strokers only lasting 60k usually... i think i might just rebuild my 4.0 when it finally dies. who knows tho.

Most of the stroker failures that you read about are cam failures, and most of those can be attributed to the now-defunct Crane cams. I got lucky, that the PO broke this engine in properly and used ZDDP sufficient oil, and so far, my Crane cam hasn't been an issue (I shouldn't have friggin said that...:shhh:). There's really no reason that a stroker shouldn't have the same longevity as a 4.0, just doesn't seem to have been the case for most folks, or maybe you just seem to hear about the bad ones on the interweb.

Update -- head on, APN somewhere in Iowa on a FEDEX truck, baby steps towards operational (knock on wood).:jester:

[Frank Z]

hit me up when you put on the intake manifold... i learned alot tonight believe it or not. Although, what you told me about strokers only lasting 60k usually... i think i might just rebuild my 4.0 when it finally dies. who knows tho.Buy mine.

[SurfXJSnow]

Buy mine.

if i only had the money frank. its been tough enough with karen not working, Dillon (my new baby boy), and the slow market for flooring/remodeling.

my 4.0 is still ticking... (literally, it sounds like a diesel right now). But when the time comes, it will be between a stoker, and rebuilding my 4.0.

[xj-grin]

BTW, anyone have expert/shadetree tips for getting a deepwell socket and a torque wrench on bolt #14 (rear drivers side)? Can't even get a wobble on it with the firewall pinch seam in the way. I have it torqued pretty damn close to 110 (by magic-butt-dyno-forearm-torque-wrench calculations) with an extended wrench, but can't confirm it with the socket/torque wrench due to the damn firewall pinch seam. :dunno:

[Hypoid]

Lower the crossmember and whatever is attached to it.

[Frank Z]

Cut half the threads off of the bolt above the nut portion.

[xj-grin]

Cut half the threads off of the bolt above the nut portion.

Its not the threads that are the problem, it is the height between the bolt head surface and the pinch seam - just can't get the socket and wrench in there. I suppose I could pull the motor mounts and lower the crossmember, but man, that's a biatch...

[Frank Z]

By removing some of the excess threads you'll have enough room to use a standard depth socket.

[Frank Z]

Keep in mind that you only need a few threads so you can secure the ground wire from the firewall.

[trail rate this]

hammer down the pinch seam

[xj-grin]

Keep in mind that you only need a few threads so you can secure the ground wire from the firewall.


I'll give it a shot tonight, but I think I will have to remove basically all of the threads in order to get a standard on it, and the ground won't reach to the next head bolt.... we'll see.:dunno:

[xj-grin]

hammer down the pinch seam

considering that one too...

[trail rate this]

worked for me when I had to pull the head on mine (burnt valve).

[xj-grin]

Just barely got an angle grinder in there to cut all of the top threads off but like 2.... worked like a charm, torqued to 110, ground re-nutted on. Good tip Frank.

replaced my leaky freeze plug too, now just waiting for the header to be delivered...:yelclap:

[Frank Z]

Saw-Wheat! Glad it's going well.

[ADam J]

Great Write up Chris...

Good to know about the valve job, It looked ok to me at the time. This is quite a bit of variation between those valves.

Nice progress getting the issue resolved. I hope your Butt dyno recieves a re-calibration when it is up and running again. :)

[xj-grin]

Great Write up Chris...

Good to know about the valve job, It looked ok to me at the time. This is quite a bit of variation between those valves.

Nice progress getting the issue resolved. I hope your Butt dyno recieves a re-calibration when it is up and running again. :)


you and me both, man. and like I said, I can't slam the valve job too much, it hung in there for over 90K, even with the wacky stem heights...

[xj-grin]

update: she's running. can't get the idle below 1,000 -- so I'm searching for a vacuum leak. Didn't road test, given the 10 inches of snow on the ground and black ice everywhere that isn't snowpacked -- figured I couldn't tell if the power-loss was fixed with all the slippage, plus I really don't want to get stranded out there tonight!! we'll give her a go tomorrow or Tuesday...:thumbup:

[Stang5lgt]

Sweet! Good luck on your test trip tomorrow.

[ADam J]

Chris, you mentioned you were going to use an APN header.. I put one on my current '98 along with a '99 intake manifold.. I had the same type of "won't idle below X RPM" but I think mine was more like 4k :). Turned out that there was some clearance issues between the header and the intake manifold.. I had to do some grinding to get the manifolds to match up properly to the head.. I don't recall which piece (intake or exhaust) took the grinding, it's been a while.

Glad to hear she's running, hopefully the power will return.

[Frank Z]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1014864

[xj-grin]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1014864

hmmmm, threads I wish I'd read YESTERDAY!!! thanks for the tips, guys, if I get after it tonight, I'll let you know the results. On the plus side, the ticking has virtually stopped, and it seems to be running very well -- just at 1,100 rpm...

[xj-grin]

Soooooo -- went around the block, vacuum leaks appear gone, and it idles well. Pulls hard in all rpm's and appears to run pretty damn smooth. The BAD: definitely some valvetrain ticking from #5 or #6 -- I'll pull the rocker cover again and double check the torque on all the rockers. I inspected all the lifters when I had it apart, but who knows.:doh: Hopefully just a mis-torqued rocker arm.

Oh, and in reference to FrankZ's thread above -- It looks like the webbing for the power steering mount on the intake manifold is actually touching the header tube from #1 -- I'm guessing this is less than optimal, even though everything seemingly torqued down OK?

[YELLAHEEP]

Yeah, I'd imagine both vibration and the potential for heat transfer from the header into the intake would be less than optimal with those two surfaces touching. But I don't imagine either would be enormously worse because of it either - since the fittment between the intake and exhaust is pretty close anyway.

[xj-grin]

Update: magical mystery oil appears to have unstuck the cause of the lifter noise. Bad news: FrankZ's well tuned ear has identified some bearing noise on the bottom end that now needs investigating.:doh::bawl:

[YELLAHEEP]

Ok.......... So, remind me again why having a stroker engine is such a good thing? I'm :banghead: just from reading all the grief you stroker guys go through.... I'm not the one having to actually go through it.....

No thanks.

[xj-grin]

Ok.......... So, remind me again why having a stroker engine is such a good thing? I'm :banghead: just from reading all the grief you stroker guys go through.... I'm not the one having to actually go through it.....

No thanks.

LOL. Thanks for the warm fuzzy words of inspiration and compassion :sure: I guess its the 300+ ft/lbs, but I hear ya -- If I had gone through Frank's ringer (knock on wood), I wouldn't be bothering... I'd really like zluster to offer to swing by and drop a CRD diesel in there -- it would be a good Xmas (or chanuka, for NOOB;))!!

I have over 90k on it, so I can't really be that bothered with the prospect of having to do a lower bearing job on it... or so I tell myself.:wierd:

[YELLAHEEP]

LOL! Yeah, sorry. That did read a bit snippy didn't it....... :D

[Frank Z]

Updates? Pictures?

[xj-grin]

umm, cooked a turkey yesterday and watched football -- didn't take any pictures.

Today, I played some mini-golf with the boys, and some Monopoly, plus a trip to Radio Shack and the Home Depot -- you want pics of that?

[Frank Z]

Sure, I'm easy to please.

[xj-grin]

So, pulled the #6 rod bearing today -- as somewhat expected, and dreaded, it is showing significant wear on the upper bearing surface. Talking with FrankZ, I understand this to mean the connecting rods are "egged", and I need to pull the crank and have it polished, as well as have new connecting rods fitted. Great. :thumbdn:

I am mulling over my options at this point, since we're talking about a significant amount of work and $$, and I'm kindof torn. My issues are:

1) I don't want to end up in Frank's world, pulling, reinstalling, and pulling, reinstalling strokers every few months due to new and varied issues;

2) I pull a trailer with my rig and don't particularly want to go back to stock power;

3) I do want to get her up and running shortly, but if I am doing an "engine swap" (i.e. pulling everything out), I would actually consider something to increase the power/reliability as well, provided I could keep costs down.

What are you guys' thoughts? I really haven't ever considered a V8 swap, and if I was going to go down that road, I'd likely prefer a diesel anyways instead -- finances really don't allow caddy-style spending either, you all know how that is nowadays. I guess I should bite the bullet, borrow Frank's hoist and pull the fooker out of there -- thoughts, suggestions, sympathy, ridicule?? :eyes::peace:

[Frank Z]

Chris,
The engine doesn't abosolutely have to come out....but it sure will make life much easier.

I'm sure there are some folks that will tell you that you should just slap some bearings in a run it. My rationale for removing the crank and rods is this:

Anything else and you won't get another 90k miles out of it.

As far as power options are concerned...stick with the stroker. A stock 4.0L can be bolted to, and added on to until your wallet is empty and it still won't make the low end torque that your stroker will.

A V8 will certainly provide for tons of power...but take it from me....it's a booger getting from a stroker with some issues to a running V8.

Do you need a a fresh drop in stroker? No you don't....so no I won't sell ya mine, not even for twice the asking price, seriously.

Get the crank and rods checked out, invest in some new bearings, gaskets, and time and you'll be back on the road with minimal down time and minimal cash outlay.

[YELLAHEEP]

Ditto to what Frank said. Believe it or not........ :D

Seems to me your cheapest and quickest fix would be to have a machine shop measure your rods and see if any need replaced. Check the pistons and cylinder walls since you're gonna be in that far anyway - and for piece of mind to ensure you don't need a piston somewhere in the mix. Then send the crank out to be checked and polished then get 'er all put back together.

I already ridiculed ya in that other thread so I'll let this invitation to do so slide...... :laugh3:

[Frank Z]

Ditto to what Frank said. Believe it or not........ :D


http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/faint.gif

[xj-grin]

LOL. Frank, I ain't buyin at twice the price anyways... maybe 1/2;)

I know its the right thing to do, I just hate the idea of booting my better 1/2 out of the garage while I pull the bastage, get the parts machined, and get it reassembled. Anyone who knows me knows my wrenching pace is much more tortoise than hare -- hoping someone would sing me a song of rainbows and unicorns I guess....:confused1

[Frank Z]

hoping someone would sing me a song of rainbows and unicorns I guess....:confused1
Okay here goes...

Rainbows and unicorns
Elfs and bunnies
Cozy blankies and pillows
Won't mean squat if you don't get busy
and fix yer damn junk.


Feel better?

[xj-grin]

Okay here goes...

Rainbows and unicorns
Elfs and bunnies
Cozy blankies and pillows
Won't mean squat if you don't get busy
and fix yer damn junk.


Feel better?

dude, it doesn't even fookin rhyme -- worthless!

[Frank Z]

I'm a white guy...I don't do hippie-hoppie!!!!

[xj-grin]

I'm a white guy...I don't do hippie-hoppie!!!!

man, from you I was just hopin for some "mommas and poppas" or maybe "crosby stills and nash"... you know: puff the magic dragon lived by the sea...

[Frank Z]

And frolicked in wifes garage
With his bust motor...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[xj-grin]

And frolicked in wifes garage
With his bust motor...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

now we're fookin cookin:viking:

[xj-grin]

Teardown is now complete, and we have some serious bearing issues. First off, cylinders 1-3 rod bearings (uppers) all showing wear (ignore the dunkin donuts stuff Troy, the box just happens to be in the picture... :dunce:):

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260197.jpg

Cylinders 4-6 aren't any better:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260199.jpg

As I was tearing it down, I noted that the crank had nearly 1/16 inch of end-play... since the FSM apparently calls for a max of 6/1000, this is not good. Turns out the thrust bearing (between cylinders 2 and 3) was pretty damn hammered. Lower bearing:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260201.jpg

Upper Bearing:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260205.jpg

The crank may be beyond saving, you can almost see the 1/32+ groove in the thrust surface (very clear in person, the photo may not be so hot):

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260200.jpg

The balance of the main bearings looked good with little noticeable wear, with the exception of the upper on #1:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260203.jpg

Anyways, it'll all head to the machine shop this week, and we'll see where we are. Hopefully the crank can be saved...:fuse:

[Frank Z]

Chris,
I hate to say it, but I'd wager Even Money on needing a new crankshaft.

[xj-grin]

Chris,
I hate to say it, but I'd wager Even Money on needing a new crankshaft.

Yeah, I'm not taking that bet -- that thrust surface is seriously chewed... I guess we know where all the end-play came from...

[Frank Z]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=244724633&postcount=24

[Frank Z]

So what did the boys at the shop say?

[xj-grin]

So what did the boys at the shop say?

I talked to Lynn - they're pretty busy this week, so I may not have any answers until after new years. He thought he might be able to build the crank back up, but it is borderline -- I'm hopefully picking up Mason's today or this weekend anyways, so if its rebuildable, I'll have an ebay listing, but I also have some insurance...

[xj-grin]

no parts, so not much work to do... but it will definitely run better with a new coat of paint!!

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/P1020006.jpg

[Frank Z]

Looks ford-ish.:twak::twak::twak:

[YELLAHEEP]

To each their own...... blue = no bueno.

John Deer Green...... now THAT'd be a winner! :thumbup:

:D

[xj-grin]

Looks ford-ish.:twak::twak::twak:

There'll be nothing remotely bowtie/government motors on my Jeep! :flamemad: I'll raise a glass to Henry and his blue-oval... I wish I had thought of Deere green though!:cheers:

[Tracker]

[QUOTE=xj-grin;244732968]no parts, so not much work to do... but it will definitely run better with a new coat of paint!!

Let me know how that Behr paint holds up on that block! :us:

[xj-grin]

Let me know how that Behr paint holds up on that block! :us:

LOL, after I posted the pic I noticed those cans back there -- I've been waiting for that one...:greensmok I prefer interior latex in heat intensive applications (that sounds kindof dirty... :shhh:)

[ColoradoRaptor]

John Deer Green...... now THAT'd be a winner! :thumbup:

:D

Maybe if it were a John Deere Motor..................:moon:

[ColoradoRaptor]

no parts, so not much work to do... but it will definitely run better with a new coat of paint!!

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/P1020006.jpg

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.................... purdy color!! :D

[xj-grin]

So - I guess the mods should rename this thread "Stroker Rebuild", since we are essentially top to bottom now...

I should have the crank, bearings and rods back from the machine shop mid-week, at less than $300 -WOOT! They are going to be able to save the crank, so if anyone is in need of a crank for a stroker, I now have a spare I'll sell ya (thanks Mason!)!

While waiting for parts, I figured I should check the wear on the cam, seeing as I have the whole beast disassembled anyways -- ask you shall receive -- the cam is pretty worn, over 0.3 out of spec on a couple of lobes, with flat spots you could actually feel on more than one. Thanks to FrankZ for the calipers and witty banter!

So - I have a Crower "Baja Beast" cam on the way -- .448 lift, 280 duration -- which will sit on top of some new Crower Cam Saver lifters. Re-assembly should start this week, with the goal of having a hoist party next weekend or the following to put the beast back in, so I can get it all broken in before the wheeling season begins in earnest, and before it tows the trailer to Moab in May.:clap:

[Frank Z]

Well it's mid-week. Didjagetyerjunkyet?

[xj-grin]

Well it's mid-week. Didjagetyerjunkyet?

negetiveghostriderthepatternisfull...:roll:

[Frank Z]

Poop!

[xj-grin]

:cue jeopardy music: STILL waiting on the machine shop - not happy. Cam is in, everything is prepped and ready for the crank... if I had it! BTW, anyone in the springs want to loan me a ring compressor for putting the pistons back in, assuming I ever get them back...? :shiver:

[Frank Z]

Spring compressor...Check
Hoist.....Check

[xj-grin]

have a hot cup of BUENO!! Hopefully I'll have some parts tomorrow, if so, I'll figure out when I can swing by and borrow the compressor. I highly doubt I will be ready to hoist it in this weekend, but you never know...

[Frank Z]

I'll put it in the van and drop it off at the Law Offices of Dewey, Screwem, & How, esq.

[xj-grin]

I'll put it in the van and drop it off at the Law Offices of Dewey, Screwem, & How, esq.

cool, I share office space with them -- you gonna be downtown anyways, or are you still working over a glazer?

[YELLAHEEP]

http://www.advancedgraphics.com/store/pc/catalog/434_general.jpg


What a buncha screwballs........ I hear they work for 'Nillas though. And the big bald one always walking around with his hand bladed up the bridge of his nose....... poor paranoid bastard......

:D

[xj-grin]

http://www.advancedgraphics.com/store/pc/catalog/434_general.jpg


What a buncha screwballs........ I hear they work for 'Nillas though. And the big bald one always walking around with his hand bladed up the bridge of his nose....... poor paranoid bastard......

:D

hmmmm, maybe I should start smoking a pipe.... :shhh:

[YELLAHEEP]

hmmmm, maybe I should start smoking a pipe.... :shhh:

Sure...... But whatcha gonna pack it with?

:D

[Frank Z]

cool, I share office space with them -- you gonna be downtown anyways, or are you still working over a glazer?No, got some refrigeration work on the west side so I'll be passin' by.

[xj-grin]

Sure...... But whatcha gonna pack it with?

:D


That was the old me, officer...;) BTW, I saw Nagelhout over the weekend, he said to say hey.:D

[YELLAHEEP]

That was the old me, officer...;) BTW, I saw Nagelhout over the weekend, he said to say hey.:D

Next time you see him, slap him with a firm, open palm across the fleshy part of the back of his neck for me......... make it sting...... :D

[.40CalPatriot]

In my eyes it looks more like Mopar to me. Not dark enough to be Ford.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/Redsrobotics/MoparLogo02.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/P1020006.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/Redsrobotics/ford-logo.jpg

[xj-grin]

In my eyes it looks more like Mopar to me. Not dark enough to be Ford.


It's "Classic Ford Blue" :shhh:

[.40CalPatriot]

It's a "Blue Classic Ford" :shhh:

Fixed!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/Redsrobotics/2890323857_f711d6fde3.jpg

Hijack complete!

[Frank Z]

ahem.......

[Kiefer316]

Is this thing done yet? :D

[xj-grin]

Bastids -- checking bearing clearances today, if all is well the bottom end should be reassembled today, and it will likely be ready for hoistage back into the heep sometime this week. Frank, let me know what your schedule looks like!:yelclap:

[xj-grin]

Progress:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/P1230013.jpg

All bearings were spot on to spec, according to the plastigage, so the bottom end is officially pre-lubed and assembled. Timing-chain is on, cover is on, oil pan is on.... and I'm freaking tired! That torque, remove, measure, lube, retorque procedure got more than a little tiresome!:banghead:

So tomorrow I'll flip it, perhaps get the head on, and get it ready to bolt back in!!! WOOOOT!:confused1

[Frank Z]

Good job Chris!!

[xj-grin]

ready when you are, Z man -- head, intake, and exhaust are on - she's hoistable!!!

[Frank Z]

Gimme a call and we'll figure out a day.

[xj-grin]

Frank and I will be hoisting this bad boy back into my rig on Saturday morning, 9am -- extra hands are welcome, PM me for an address if you plan on coming by!

[xj-grin]

Lots o progress todya -- HUGE thanks to FrankZ for spending his entire saturday with me and wrenching like a madman. We got the new pilot bearing/clutch parts together, and with a bunch of determination, it is back in the rig, plumbed, and full of fluids. Unfortunately, try as we might, we didn't quite get the timing right, and couldn't get it to fire up before dinner... perhaps we'll be running tomorrow... :peace:

[Fred]

Sorry I couldn't help out. I got up early, but the wife gave a honey do list.

[Frank Z]

Glad to help Chris...bummed that we couldn't get it to start.

[xj-grin]

IT'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently Frank and I should have done one more "one more time" last night... I went out this morning and double checked TDC, reset the distributer per Haynes, hopped in and VROOOM! Did a 1/2 hour breakin at 2200 rpm, changed the oil, and I am officially back in business. Idle seems slightly low, and it lopes a bit more than it used to with this new cam. Power doesn't seem quite where it should be, but it was significantly better on the way home from costco than on the way there, so perhaps it will perk up a bit.... :peace::greensmok

[Frank Z]

Sounds damn good too!

I'm really glad you brought the heep by today Chris, glad to see someone's heep on the road again.

[Kiefer316]

Great to hear chris.

[ADam J]

Glad to hear it lives again! Here's to another 90k+ miles :)

[xj-grin]

Thanks, Adam - I hope so too. Threw a code last evening -- multiple misfire on cyl 1 and 3. Cleared it, and nothing this morning...:eyes:

[xj-grin]

I hope not, but here we go... multiple misfire codes (P0300, 0301-5), and what sounds like a rod knock on the low end - purred like a kitten yesterday. Heading by Frank's tonight to let him lend an ear and an opinion, but I am hereby soliciting all of your opinions as well. :(

Current thoughts are that perhaps a rod is contacting the girdle, as the clearances were pretty tight (hope so, easy fix), and maybe timing is off by a tooth....

[Frank Z]

Did you get my voicemail?

[xj-grin]

Did you get my voicemail?

I did now, not sure how I missed your call since my phone is on the desk in front of me...

I don't think I'll have time this afternoon to go see Lynn - given how busy they are, even a trip to pick up parts always takes the better part of an hour... If its cool with you, I'll swing by your place tonight on the way home...

Funny story, searching for girdle issues and I came across a stroker build thread by some FrankZ dude on "polkaudio.com" who had the same girdle issues.:D

[Frank Z]

Sure, come on by.

[ADam J]

? :eyes:

[xj-grin]

busy -- maybe tomorrow evening I can tear into it... I'm still leaning towards timing calibration and a clunk on the girdle...:eye:

[xj-grin]

SO --- I pulled the pan last night, turned it over briefly to look for interference with the girdle, found none -- considered with Frank that while there might be no contact with the girdle simply turning it over, the force of combustion when running could deflect stuff just enough to contact -- ran it with me under it taking an oil shower for about 5 seconds and....






























not only did I see no contact, it didn't make any knocking noise at all. :wierd: F#$%^ trucks - never make the "sound" when you take it to the mechanic... Anyways, since it is already disassembled, I double (triple ) checked all the torque on the main bearing caps and rod bearing caps, no issues, and will reassemble with an extra spacer on the girdle just in case it is actually contacting tonight. I also noticed a couple of bolts holding the inspection cover on were loose, so those got snugged up -- perhaps there is an outside chance that my knocking was the inspection cover (since the sound was clearly way back in the engine, and at times sounded like it might of been in the bell-housing), but I seriously doubt it. I'll put the oil pan back on tonight and fill her back up, double check the torque on all the valve train components (i.e. rockers), cross my fingers and move on to the timing issues... :|

[xj-grin]

bottom end back together... still noisy. So Yella swung by this afternoon and lent his seasoned ear. While he agreed it sometimes sounded low (redemption for FrankZ and I), he thought it had the tone of valvetrain noise. We pulled the valve cover, and WALA (?), bent pushrods.:thumbdn:

So, replacing the pushrods is easy enough, but first I want to figure out why they are bent. My new Crower cam is actually milder than its Crane predecessor, having less lift. I am using the same rocker arms, springs and rods as pre-rebuild. I do have new lifters - Crower cam-saver hydraulics, and at this point we are thinking I either have a bad lifter, or improper lifter pre-load...

This is where we need some clarification -- how could my lifter pre-load be off when the entire valvetrain/head/springs/rockers/rods haven't changed? Little help here...:o

[YELLAHEEP]

I still think that it has to do with the combination of the larger lobe cam and the stiffer valve springs. Those push rods looked like stock ones, and I'm betting that they just weren't up to snuff for the added stress.

You mentioned that this new head should actually be "thicker" since it's not been milled like the previous head was. And given that the cam is a bit less aggressive than the previous cam..... you should have plenty of movement (meaning the push rods aren't likely to be too long).

Does Frank have another set of push rods laying around? Maybe swap the bent ones out for some straight ones and let the engine idle again for a minute or two and ensure that the engine noise is gone - that'd answer your noise source question for certain, then you could feel better about looking into some heavier duty push rods and ensuring the valve springs are allowing for enough travel. (Hopefully the springs (either inner or outter) aren't being completely compressed to where the coils are all mashed together when the valve is being opened) if ya dig what I'm saying.

Just seems to me that the combination of stock, used push rods in combination with a beefier cam and stiffer valve springs would put a lot of stress on those rods. :thumbup:

[Frank Z]

Actually Chris may have found the problem. I'll let him do the splainin'......

[xj-grin]

I'm convinced it is a lifter pre-load issue. As is typical, I soaked my lifters overnight in oil and then loaded/unloaded them by hand with a pushrod while submerged prior to installation -- some reading yesterday indicates this can actually act to make the lifters act "solid", as opposed to priming them, which would then result in 0 preload, and effectively longer pushrods. I'll be testing preload on all of the lifters with the unbent rods, and perhaps ordering up a couple new lifters if I have one seized -- unless anyone has good lifter bleed down suggestions...:confused1

[Hypoid]

Pull them for an clean and inspect.

I know of an old A&P mechanic on another board who takes new lifters from the box, disassembles and cleans them in mineral spirits. His observation is that he ALWAYS finds debris from the manufacturing process inside new lifters. On a side note, he always spends big $$$ on premium brand parts, to find trash inside.

When you had the bottom end open, did you make it a point to check the cam lobes for excessive wear? Perish the thought :gag:, but, not enough preload will let the pushrods un-seat and contact the side of the lifter. Never mind how I know this...

[YELLAHEEP]

Well, I definitely don't do a whole lot of engine buildin'...... but I'd never heard of a hydraulic lifter NOT bleeding down, holding oil pressurized in itself like that.

If it was in fact holding pressurized oil and not bleeding down...... Why was I able to spin those bent rods after the engine ran? If it was acting like a solid lifter - wouldn't everything have been tight?

The reason I bring that up is that just a couple minutes after Chris ran the engine to have me listen to the sound, he removed the valve cover and when looking at the rocker arms - all of them were "relaxed". None were still pressing down on any valves holding the valve open. Only 2 rods were tight enough that I couldn't spin them with my fingers which - to me - indicated that the lifter was sitting on the high-side of the cam lobe.

I'm just asking this for my own education. If ya find anything on the web about the pre-load issue, post it up - I'd like to learn about it.

[xj-grin]

Well, I definitely don't do a whole lot of engine buildin'...... but I'd never heard of a hydraulic lifter NOT bleeding down, holding oil pressurized in itself like that.

If it was in fact holding pressurized oil and not bleeding down...... Why was I able to spin those bent rods after the engine ran? If it was acting like a solid lifter - wouldn't everything have been tight?

The reason I bring that up is that just a couple minutes after Chris ran the engine to have me listen to the sound, he removed the valve cover and when looking at the rocker arms - all of them were "relaxed". None were still pressing down on any valves holding the valve open. Only 2 rods were tight enough that I couldn't spin them with my fingers which - to me - indicated that the lifter was sitting on the high-side of the cam lobe.

I'm just asking this for my own education. If ya find anything on the web about the pre-load issue, post it up - I'd like to learn about it.

Hypoid -- its a new cam as well, so no lobe damage (at least there wasn't...:shocked:)

Troy - I think that rod that was most bent would have been really tight, if it wasn't bent, which effectively took the tension off. I'll post up after I check the preload on the lifters, although likely not today with the superbowl and all... If any are stuck/collapsed, they'll be getting replaced... and Hypoid, I wouldn't have a clue how to disassemble/reassemble a hydraulic lifter. :confused1

[old_man]

I'm convinced that many of the cam failures are really from not checking for spring binding with a new cam, lifters, valve job, and milled head or block.

[xj-grin]

I'm convinced that many of the cam failures are really from not checking for spring binding with a new cam, lifters, valve job, and milled head or block.

I agree -- in my case the old cam had higher lift, and the old head was decked. I am using the same springs from the old engine (I believe they are from Crane), so if anything, they should compress less in this set-up than the old, and binding shouldn't be an issue (it never was before...) -- unless my understanding is completely backasswards, which is of course a distinct possiblity :laugh:

[ADam J]

Chris,

were you using the old pushrods? Just as an FYI, they were not stock length... When I assembled it originally, I measured the pre-load before firing it up, and it was off quite a bit. so I replaced the push rods with an adjusted size ( shorter I think)... It's been a while...

I would think that checking the pre-load would be the correct course of action.

[xj-grin]

Thanks for chiming in, Adam -- I measured the pushrods this morning and can confirm your memory that they are shorter -- stock is 9.65, these are 9.56 or so... I'm assuming your rods were shorter because the head was decked, but since the new one isn't stockers might be in order. I'll confirm it with a preload test. Let me know if you have any other memories!! :cheers:

[Hypoid]

I wouldn't have a clue how to disassemble/reassemble a hydraulic lifter. :confused1
Pretty straight-forward actually.

Since the engine has sat, you should be able to push down on the pushrod with your hand and get a little movement from the plunger. If not, it's time for a look-see.

Although, I think you already found the problem.

Here are a thousand extra words:

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Misc%20stuff/Lifter1.jpg

[ADam J]

Let me know if you have any other memories!! :cheers:

.10 short sounds about right.

Could it be that they are too loose? Hence why Yella was able to spin them so easily? You are using a different head now right? Obviously new lifters and cam are enough to warrant the pre-load test...

Thats all my memory's got right now... I'll chime in if something else rattles loose...

[Frank Z]

Any progress Chris?

[xj-grin]

Any progress Chris?


I bought a caliper... sick as a dog and at home today. If I get a second wind I might wander to the garage and see if I can figure out how to execute my pre-load testing instructions on a cylinder or two...:wierd:

[JJacobs]

Priming lifters like that is a huge no-no, as you've found out. Submerge 'em if you want, but don't attempt to prime them out of the engine! A drill through the distributor hole works great to prime a new engine safely. You'll notice doing that that only a few pushrods will be oiling at a given time, you need to turn the crank to a few different spots to get oil out of all the pushrods.

[xj-grin]

Priming lifters like that is a huge no-no, as you've found out. Submerge 'em if you want, but don't attempt to prime them out of the engine! A drill through the distributor hole works great to prime a new engine safely. You'll notice doing that that only a few pushrods will be oiling at a given time, you need to turn the crank to a few different spots to get oil out of all the pushrods.

Yeah, info I wish I'd had a week ago. I actually did both - pre-primed the lifters and primed with a drill in the distributor... They all oiled without turning the crank - should that tell me something too??

[JJacobs]

Honestly it's been a while since I did that with a 4.0, so it might not be accurate with that engine. On my 401 and a lot of other V-8's the lifter blocks the oil passage when the cam lobe's at full lift= no flow out of that pushrod until the lifter comes back down the bore a bit.

[Frank Z]

Doesn't apply to cam saver lifters.

[JJacobs]

That may be true Frank, but those are usually only used in an attempt to tame an overly large cam.

[xj-grin]

That may be true Frank, but those are usually only used in an attempt to tame an overly large cam.

or in Frank and my case, in order to tame the fear of repeated cam failures in 4.0+ strokers (Franks is a more personal experience) :gee:

[JJacobs]

I see how well they worked for him.

[Frank Z]

I only had 1 cam failure and was not using Crower Cam-Savers then. I installed a Crower Cam and lifters AFTER the Crane Cam shit the bed.

[Frank Z]

For those not familiar with the Cam Saver lifters:


CAMSAVER HYDRAULIC LIFTERS
The maximum in cam lobe and lifter life.
If high spring pressures or extreme and
unusual operating conditions have you
worried about lobe scuff and lifter wear,
insist on Crower “high-lube” CamSaver
lifters. These lifters deliver 20% to 30%
more oil to your lobe and lifter faces
for the best possible insurance against
premature lobe and lifter failure. Specially
machined flats put 12 to 16 ounces
of additional oil per minute at each lobe
without adversely affecting engine oil
pressure (nominal drop of just 1 or 2
pounds). Crower CamSaver lifters incorporate
the same precision ground radius
face and finish as our standard lifters to
insure quick break-in and trouble
free operation.

[JJacobs]

Where does it say it's ok to pump those lifters up before putting them in the engine? That's just something I would never do regardless of whether or not you can get away with it. Lifters pump up within about 20 seconds and you don't have to worry about piston to valve contact, coil bind or any of that other fun stuff.

Also in the lifter description it says "high spring pressures or extreme and unusual operating conditions" none of which a stroker motor should have. If these are needed there's something else going on.

[Frank Z]

It doesn't say it anywhere.

I'd have to say that extreme is a subjective discriptor, not an objective one. Full throttle romps thru a boulder field, fairly extreme. Slow speed crawl up and over a curb at the mall....not so much.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all strokers are created equally. Take a gander at what JPMagazine did with theirs. Overbuilt and it most certainly will see extreme duty. Seems there are more people buying Yella Tera rockers and upping the seat pressure by using stiffer springs as well.

Considering the amount of cam failures (not just in strokers) in the last few years, cam savers make sense. The cost is low enough to make it a no brainer with regards to helping achieve a more reliable and long-lived stroker.

[xj-grin]

I agree as to the cost/benefit -- the incremental price difference on the cam savers v. regular hydraulic lifters was minimal, and more oil to the lobes is a good thing, regardless.

As to the pre-priming/hand pumping - live and learn, I won't be doing it again.:thumbup:

[YELLAHEEP]

As to the pre-priming/hand pumping - live and learn, I won't be doing it again.:thumbup:

Well, at least not to the engine lifters......... :roflmao:

[xj-grin]

Well, at least not to the engine lifters......... :roflmao:

doh - I Danny'd. :wierd::roflmao:

[Frank Z]

Update?

[xj-grin]

sick, sick, sick. I just stumbled into work, but I'm not sure how long I'm going to last.:rattle:

[old_man]

I feel for you. I was diagnosed with the flu two weeks ago. Took the Tamiflu, but still feel pretty crappy.

When is the winter going to end??????

[xj-grin]

I feel for you. I was diagnosed with the flu two weeks ago. Took the Tamiflu, but still feel pretty crappy.

When is the winter going to end??????

ya know, I took a 1/2 hour power nap yesterday evening, and woke up feeling 90% better... might even get out to the garage tomorrow.

I read an article last week that tamiflu is completely overhyped, and only has any effect in less than 15% of folks who take it --chicken soup, rest and a positive attitude my man! Hope you feel better soon!

[JJacobs]

[QUOTE=old_man;
When is the winter going to end??????[/QUOTE]

NEVER!!!!

:D

[xj-grin]

NEVER!!!!

:D

hey, at least we don't live in DC, those basitds are up to their arses in it!:laugh3:

[Hypoid]

When is the winter going to end??????

NEVER!!!! :D

Not true!!!

When we have a dumper blow through and leave us up to our necks in snow, we will know that spring has arrived. :)

[xj-grin]

update -- virtually 0 preload on the lifters -- that 0.1 short in the rods appears to be the problem. Should have some stock rods today, will test the preload on them, and maybe fire her back up this afternoon -- crossing all available digits....:wierd:

[YELLAHEEP]

So, the rods were too short? Musta bent from the light constant hammering then?

Ya learn something new every day......

[xj-grin]

So, the rods were too short? Musta bent from the light constant hammering then?

Ya learn something new every day......

Apparently - as Adam J (the PO and original builder) pointed out above, he ended up with shorter rods during the build, to the tune of maybe 0.1 inches. Best I can guess is that I had no preload, so when not under pressure, they could have bounced around a bit, like out of the cup seat on the lifter, resulting in the bneds :dunno:

I spent the better part of the afternoon chasing stock rods around town and sitting in traffic due to the ineptitude of the parts monkeys at Advance, so maybe tomorrow will be the da!:peace:

[Frank Z]

So, the rods were too short? Musta bent from the light constant hammering then?

Ya learn something new every day......
I'm still putting even money on the lifters being pumped up and not compressing.

[xj-grin]

I'm still putting even money on the lifters being pumped up and not compressing.

Unfortunately, while the rods are definately short, I tend to think so too... It is really tough to tell if you are getting any movement out of them in the engine (by hand), given that we're talking about 0.02 of movement... I have a hunch that the head will be coming off sometime this week. Again.:lickout:

[Frank Z]

I've got some vinyl tube if you want to try sucking some of the oil out of the lifters with your shop- vac.

[xj-grin]

I've got some vinyl tube if you want to try sucking some of the oil out of the lifters with your shop- vac.

Thanks Frank, but I convinced myself overnight that if my pre-load is even iffy once I get the new rods in, I'm pulling the head, inspecting/relieving any hydro-locked lifters and moving on -- I really don't want to fire it up with new rods only to bend them too with effectively solid lifters -- I'll do it right and do it once (I hope), even if it takes my another 2 weeks at my wicked quick mechanic work pace...:roll:

Also, Adam checked his old emails and found his originals from Accurate Power (amazing, we're talking email from 6-7 years ago) -- the rods I took out were 0.045 short -- my stock ones should be moving me back towards the proper spec (assuming that my incompetent ass is even remotely close on measuring preload, which is definitely debatable...):hang:

[Frank Z]

Left ya a voice mail.

[xj-grin]

update: Frank and I gave her a couple hours of attention on Sunday, essentially double checking the pre-load measurments I had made, making those measurements with the new stock pushrods. We calculated about 0.1 of preload, so we shimmed the rockers @ 0.06", re-assembled and fired her up: noisy.

So, we pulled the valve cover and some of the rockers were silly loose, even though properly torqued -- unshimmed the rockers thinking the noise may have been these rockers bouncing around. Rockers properly torqued were still a touch loose (could wiggle them slightly with pressure), but much tighter. fired her up - still noisy.

nothing in the upper valve train appears out of whack, so I'll be pulling the head (again), pulling the lifters, manually bleeding them (disassembling if necessary), re-installing and seeing where we go from there... :rattle:

[YELLAHEEP]

Man, you've gotta be pretty friggin' sick of all this trial and error crap Chris..... I don't know how you're doing it.

I wouldn't have to go to my tool box to get a wrench - I'd be pulling 'em from the garage walls they'd have been thrown at....... :D

[xj-grin]

Man, you've gotta be pretty friggin' sick of all this trial and error crap Chris..... I don't know how you're doing it.


How am I doing it? Pretty friggin slowly, even by my standards. Not sure what other choices I've got at this point - $1k in the rebuild and seemingly pretty close to running, gotta figure out WTF is up with the noises... I did threaten to call Stang and discuss 5.0 swaps with him this weekend, but I don't think I was serious... yet.:cheers:

[xj-grin]

SOOOOO, 10 of 12 lifters appear to have been hydrolocked - no movement in the caps at all under pressure. Disassembled all of them, and now have the more typical 1/8-1/4" ish springloaded movement. Each lifter had at least a 1/2 teaspoon of oil in the bottom which would not bleed out, even upside down, and apparently was causing the hydrolock... picking up some new head bolts (set 2), new head gasket (#4) and oil change supplies, and putting her back together, maybe even this weekend... cross your fingers, toes, and any other digits you are able to cross (without excessive pain)...:confused1:explosion

[Frank Z]

Better double check the push rods again Chris.

[xj-grin]

given.

[jimgrms]

Chris Is there a chance you somehow got some bad lifters? , sure hope you get it right

[xj-grin]

I made them "bad" with pre-soak and pre-prime...we'll see how the pre-load looks this week. My sister was in town for the weekend and my head gasket won't be in until tomorrow, so no sunday progress report...:peace:

[xj-grin]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... she runs.... she knocks.

I put it all back together today, checked lifter preload - appeared about 0.05 - within spec. I reassembled the accessories and fired it up and have exactly the same knock. It's official, I give up. I have too many other things not getting done while I try to fix this by braille, and I'm man enough to admit that it is beyond me -- I'll learn more at this point from a pro telling me what it is that I actually fooked up. :rattle:

I have a mechanic that does a bunch of automotive work for co-workers that I may take it to, but sure would appreciate it if the springs guys would chime in with any recommendations for a quality mechanic that won't break the bank. :helpme:

[in4aride]

Damn that really sucks 'grin.

[Frank Z]

How about the shop that did your machining? Think it's worth the trip down there to have them give a listen to it?

[xj-grin]

I don't doubt that they'd have some valuable input, Frank, but even if they did, that's another couple weeks of me working on this instead of other house/trailer/work/kid projects that really should have my attention. As always, I have more time than money, but I really think I'm going to bite the bullet and let a pro iron out this one.:eye:

[Frank Z]

Chris,
If anyone understands your frustration, it's me.

How about Trailrunner (Lenard)? He's got a shop near the USOC.

[YELLAHEEP]

If you need a truck/trailer to haul your rig to the shop you choose, lemme know Chris. I'm tending to my wife's after-surgery care this week, but we could work it out......

[xj-grin]

If you need a truck/trailer to haul your rig to the shop you choose, lemme know Chris. I'm tending to my wife's after-surgery care this week, but we could work it out......

Thanks, Yella - it runs well enough to get downtown to a mechanics -- thanks for the reference, Frank, I'll shoot him a note...

[Frank Z]

Chris,
If you have a change of heart and want to pull it and tear it down...I'm in. Hell, I'll even bring a sixer and a pizza from Borellios.

What do you say?

[xj-grin]

you, my friend, are a glutton for punishment -- you finally sell your stroker after uncounted tales of woe, and now you can't keep your hands off of mine -- seek professional help man (not the same kind I am :roll:)... thanks for the offer, I'm turning in my wrenches on this project.

Had the boriellos already tonight, may pick up a sixer so I can really jack up my plumbing project...:peace:

[xj-grin]

minor update -- Leonard pegged my noise down to upper end, cylinders 2 and 3 in about 2.5 seconds. Said diagnosis has now been confirmed by a couple of his machinists as well. Compression test showed 35lbs in #2, 65lbs in #3, and some pressure bleeding between them. The head is at the machinists getting checked for warpage, etc., should know more by Monday. SOOO, its appearing Frank and I managed to get everything right, except for the one thing we took for granted and didn't check -- figures don't it? :sunshine:


more to come....

[xj-grin]

Ok Fellas -- need some imput from you all, particularly any of you who are more than shadetree mechanics...

Leonard over at Tinkers (trialrunner on NAXJA) is looking through the engine for me, trying to track down the problem. As previously mentioned, his trained ear and that of a couple of machinists he uses all put my noise at cyl 2 and 3, top end -- those two cylinders failed their compression tests miserably, showing only 35 and 65 lbs of pressure, respectively. Further, there was evidence of pressure bleeding between the two cylinders...

The head is off and has been inspected by the machine shop -- it is warped 0.0014, which I believe is still within factory spec, but the warpage is focused on the front of the head, in their opinion resulting in the compression issues in #2 and #3. Further, while the valves were all seating well enough to pass the water test that Frank and I put them through (Leonard did as well), they did not fair as well under pressure in a leakdown test at the machine shop, both cylinders #2 and #3 showing significant leakage. The machinist recommends planing the head and a valve job, and it is difficult not to agree. FWIW, all springs tested at 240lbs, which is what these aftermarket Crane springs should be at (also allow for additional lift).

So, some progress - However, it does not answer the question as to why I am repeatedly getting bent pushrods - several were bent again when Leonard disassembled the engine, and that is with approximately 15 miles on them. Leonard is somewhat at a loss, as am I. Measurements from the machine shop, and mine, indicate that stock length pushrods should have been appropriate. There is no signs of any valve contact with the pistons. The lifters all appear in fine shape... WTF??

I really don't want to get the compression/head issue resolved, put it back together and end up with a bunch of pushrod related damage -- what say you oh wizards of jeep??:peace:

[YELLAHEEP]

Dunno if any of this you've already seen, but figured I'd post up these links:

Stroker exclusive website:

http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=34

Another webpage by a guy with quite a bit of knowledge on jeep strokers:

http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/index.html

Taken from the above webpage. Bottom of the page discusses performance push rods, pre-load and lengths:

http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/valvetrain.html

Fourwheeler Magazine's stroker build article:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/engine/129_0711_1987_2006_jeep_40l_inline_six/index.html

HTH.

[xj-grin]

Thanks, Yella, but all of those have been in my "favorites" for years -- nothing new for me there. :cool:

[YELLAHEEP]

Figured as much.

Have you considered PM'ing "Dr Dyno" here? He seems to have a wealth of knowledge with strokers........ :dunno:

[xj-grin]

Figured as much.

Have you considered PM'ing "Dr Dyno" here? He seems to have a wealth of knowledge with strokers........ :dunno:

he does, and I might... hoping some of the ASE-type guys might chime in with their experiences, stroker or not. Seems to me that bending pushrods is simply an internal combustion engine thing, not necessarily a stroker thing, since the mechanicals are all essentially the same... Is it 5pm yet? I'm parched.:o

[Frank Z]

240# seems high to me.

Yep, just looked at my FSM.

Valve Springs
Free Length (Approx.) . . . . . .47.65 mm (1.876 in.)
Spring Tension—Valve Closed.271 to 307 N @ 41.656
mm
(61 to 69 lbf. @ 1.64 in.)
Spring Tension—Valve Open . . .818.5 to 871.9 N @
30.89 mm
(184 to 196 lbf @ 1.216 in.)
Inside Diameter . . . . . . . . . .21.0 mm to 21.51 mm
(0.827 to 0.847 in.)

[YELLAHEEP]

I was just looking up some valve spring specs as well. I saw 'Grin's posting of his being at 240 lbs and I haven't seen any other spec close to that on the internet links on stroker builds that I looked over.

The only article I found was this guy's over-the-top stroker build where he's using chromoly hardened pushrods, roller rockers and pushrod guides:

http://www.maizekustoms.com/pages/jeep-4.0l-to-4.6-stroker-build/stroker-build-continued.php

"I am using dual springs not because I am planning on reving the motor high, but because it cuts down on valve train harmonics. If you will observe the spring pressures in my last post, closed pressure = 100lbs, open = 235lbs. That is pretty close to stock pressures. Stock springs were rated at 105lbs closed, and 245lbs open."

Not sure where he got the stock spec being 235 lbs...... :dunno:

Edit: Finished reading his article...... I guess the push rod guides were a bad idea........... :eek:

http://www.maizekustoms.com/media/Stroker%20Build/jeep89.jpg

[xj-grin]

Yella, if you read down the page there is a picture of the tag that came on his "Australian fine wire" springs -- not stock. I was aware that stock was around 200# (196 per Frank's FSM) and Leonard and I talked about that -- his machinists thought 240 shouldn't be a big deal and was typical of an aftermarket spring for a stoker, your link kindof confirms that. Crane's website blows and is having a hard time loading, but I found several applications before their site locked up with 300+ lbs of spring rate... :dunno:

[YELLAHEEP]

Yeah, after doing some further reading on other sites...... there really is no consistency with a particular "recipe" for the perfect stroker. Seems everyone has success with various spring rates. Some saying they're doing fine with stock springs and a Crane 231 cam, others saying they get bad valve float with the same set up after 4K RPM.......

This link seems to have some real good valve spring rate specs based on the different manufacturers. I also realized that there are two spring rates involved - actual spring rate until the coils are compressed completely, and then the spring rate installed when the spring is compressed with the valve open to max spec...... big difference.....

http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=343

I'm gonna bow out now....... my brain is angry with me. :wierd:

[xj-grin]

mild update and correction -- I mistyped in my last real update, the head was warped 0.014, spec being 0.006 - significant and is being planed, along with a 3-angle valve job. that should clear up the compression issues, but doesn't seem particularly relevant to the push rod bending issue...

Exchanged some PM with Dino today, who suggested checking the same ususal suspects we have been working through -- lifter pre-load, spings, etc. I made sure the machine shop is checking on stem height, valve height, etc., so we'll eliminate those as an option...

Anyone have any other thoughts as to causes for push-rod bending? Leonard suggested perhaps over oiling due to worn cam bearings... they appeared fine when disassembled but its a thought. frustrating as hell.:anon:

[Frank Z]

I know exactly where this is headed......................





















Chris is gonna do a V8 swap!!!!!

[xj-grin]

bastid.




















































although I have to say I noticed the full rebuilt 5.2L drivetrain for sale at Colorado4x4.org... :skull2::thumbdn:

[jimgrms]

I know exactly where this is headed......................


Chris he is quick to kick you when your down :>{))))


















Chris is gonna do a V8 swap!!!!!

[xj-grin]

Frank likes to pimp me, particularly now that he smeared "curse" all over my rig:dunce:

Update -- the head has been planed 0.015 and is now true. Machine shop may be done with it tomorrow, perhaps get the rig from Leonard on Friday. The machine shop has verified that stem height, spring height, guides, etc. are all within spec and in good shape. Multiple sets of eyes and hands can find nothing in the low end, lifters, pistons which would be causing the knock, and the head will at this point be essentially new (with my current springs and rockers). The plan is to bolt it up, fire it up, and give it a listen -- cross your fingers folks.:fuse:

[xj-grin]

WOOT! - push rod issue may be solved! On second look, the machine shop believes the Crane springs are indeed binding at full-open, causing the pushrods to bend, plus the spring retainers appear to be keeping the valves from reaching the proper height - new springs and retainers on the way to solve the issue! Odd though - my Crane cam had higher lift than the Crower that is in there now, and the old head was decked more, resulting in even more effective lift -- I ran these same springs on that head with no issues for over 90k... best Leonard and I can come up with is that when the last head was preped, the valve seats were altered or something - Adam's receipts from the machine shop don't have that kind of detail, so its just speculating (feel free to chime in if the answer comes to you Adam!).

Regardless, machine work is done and I'll likely be back in business by Friday!:clap: (still cautiously optimistic, since Frank smeared curse on me... :eek:)

[trailrunner]

shop said the diffence was in the 2 heads.

[xj-grin]

shop said the diffence was in the 2 heads.

Leonard - -so they think the last head had the seats machined to accept those springs? It would make sense, I guess. Frank, IIRC you had yours machined to take a chevy spring, no??

Either way, thanks for helping to solve the problem, Leonard. Go figure it would be where we failed to look for it....

[ADam J]

Ummm that was a while back... I don't remember Chris... I do remember the shop having to work at it to get the springs and what not to fit properly. So I would not at all be surprised. I'm glad to hear there is a likely resolution to this. V8's arn't meant for Jeeps... :)

[trailrunner]

4.2 and 4.0

[xj-grin]

4.2 and 4.0

confused - they're 4.2 springs?

[Frank Z]

Regardless, machine work is done and I'll likely be back in business by Friday!:clap:






















The silence is DEAFENING!!!!!!!!!

[xj-grin]

The silence is DEAFENING!!!!!!!!!

The valve springs and retainers are on order as I understand, expected Monday, likely Leonard will be done mid-week with re-assembly. Patience, grasshopper. You'll know its done when I tell you to get your hoist out of my garage :flipoff:

[Frank Z]

It's 7:24pm......





















Do you know where your heep is?:eyes:

[xj-grin]

I know where most of it is...:doh:

Since you seem to want an update, the machine shop tried to re-use my crane springs, opted to order new springs and retainers from Crower specified for this cam - might have come in today in which case they might get the head back to Leonard tomorrow, in which case I might get the jeep Friday. I'm betting early next week (not a slight on Leonard at all, I'm just a pessimist lately). The machine shop will be doing some work to the valve seats to ensure I get a spot on spring height... :cheers:

[Frank Z]

Sucks having to wait, but hopefully it won't be much longer, and the motor will quit bending pushrods.

Should've got a V8!

[xj-grin]

Should've got a V8!

Had one with lunch, low sodium, but two servings of vegetables. meh.

[ColoradoRaptor]

Should've got a V8!

Talkin out the bung hole I see.............:moon:

I will be the next to build a stroker for my Beasty :D

[xj-grin]

SOOOOO - I have the rig back, and Leonard and the machine shop appear to have the compression issues solved, and likely the pushrod issues as well. BUT, I still have a fairly loud knock/tap, still sounds high, still throwing a cyl 3 misfire code... frustrated, but appreciative of Leonard for his efforts.

I'll be pulling the stroker again on Saturday afternoon, likely throwing in a stock 4.0 soon, perhaps Sunday -- just can't keep tinkering and hope to make it to Moab in May. Once I have some other projects done, I'll tear the stroker back down on the stand and see if we can't figure out WTF is the problem...:confused1

[in4aride]

Sucks man. But being able to get out again will be worth the power loss. :thumbup:

[Frank Z]

A brief refresher and my thoughts in blue later....
So, pulled the #6 rod bearing today -- as somewhat expected, and dreaded, it is showing significant wear on the upper bearing surface. Talking with FrankZ, I understand this to mean the connecting rods are "egged", and I need to pull the crank and have it polished, as well as have new connecting rods fitted. Great. :thumbdn:

I am mulling over my options at this point, since we're talking about a significant amount of work and $$, and I'm kindof torn. My issues are:

1) I don't want to end up in Frank's world, pulling, reinstalling, and pulling, reinstalling strokers every few months due to new and varied issues;

2) I pull a trailer with my rig and don't particularly want to go back to stock power;

3) I do want to get her up and running shortly, but if I am doing an "engine swap" (i.e. pulling everything out), I would actually consider something to increase the power/reliability as well, provided I could keep costs down.

What are you guys' thoughts? I really haven't ever considered a V8 swap, and if I was going to go down that road, I'd likely prefer a diesel anyways instead -- finances really don't allow caddy-style spending either, you all know how that is nowadays. I guess I should bite the bullet, borrow Frank's hoist and pull the fooker out of there -- thoughts, suggestions, sympathy, ridicule?? :eyes::peace:

Teardown is now complete, and we have some serious bearing issues. First off, cylinders 1-3 rod bearings (uppers) all showing wear (ignore the dunkin donuts stuff Troy, the box just happens to be in the picture... :dunce:):

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260197.jpg

Cylinders 4-6 aren't any better:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260199.jpg

As I was tearing it down, I noted that the crank had nearly 1/16 inch of end-play... since the FSM apparently calls for a max of 6/1000, this is not good. Turns out the thrust bearing (between cylinders 2 and 3) was pretty damn hammered. Lower bearing:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260201.jpg

Upper Bearing:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260205.jpg

The crank may be beyond saving, you can almost see the 1/32+ groove in the thrust surface (very clear in person, the photo may not be so hot):

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260200.jpg

The balance of the main bearings looked good with little noticeable wear, with the exception of the upper on #1:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/cumminscd/PC260203.jpg

Anyways, it'll all head to the machine shop this week, and we'll see where we are. Hopefully the crank can be saved...:fuse:

I know the machine shop checked and resized the Crankshaft Side of the connecting rod, but what about the wrist pin hole in the rod and in the piston itself? Seems to me that out of round conditions in either could be the cause of the knock.

What do you think of pulling the crankshaft and giving each connecting rod (special attention to #6) a little up and down action to check for any play?

[xj-grin]

A brief refresher and my thoughts in blue later....




I know the machine shop checked and resized the Crankshaft Side of the connecting rod, but what about the wrist pin hole in the rod and in the piston itself? Seems to me that out of round conditions in either could be the cause of the knock.

What do you think of pulling the crankshaft and giving each connecting rod (special attention to #6) a little up and down action to check for any play?

I think you smoke too much crack, and we can chase that bunny once the XJ actually runs again... :kissyou: Pretty sure Lynn looked all the pistons over while he had them.