Quick Hydro Assist Question...

[FarmerMatt]

Is there any reason why you couldn't mount the ram so it's push / pulling on the drag link? Most of the time you see them mounted from the axle to the tie rod, but I'm wanting to mount mine from my track bar axle mount to the drag link to get it out of harms way... I don't want to scratch that shiny chrome!!

Matt

[CRASH]

No reason at all, packaging is a little more difficult in some instances, however.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

How about mounting it behind the axle tube and pushing/pulling on a double ended high steer arm? Crash mentioned this once and since you don't have shocks mounted back there anymore, perhaps you could get that to work? Jeff

[BrettM]

I'm having a little trouble picturing what I'm thinking... but you may have some trouble limiting it properly mounted that way if your panhard and draglink are different lengths or angles. If the lengths and angles match there is definitely no problem besides maybe packaging.

[Goatman]

If it looks good to you, it should work. Goat1 has his ram mounted to the pitman arm, not much different than mounting to the drag link.

[xjj33p3r]

I've only seen one person do this on Pirate, but he mounted the ram on the opposite frame rail as the panhard mount. He got some pretty funky issues, so he ended up mounting it parrallel to the tierod.

[FarmerMatt]

No double high steer arms... Can't do that with my knuckles / arms. My track bar & drag link are the same length. I've got the room & like the idea & getting it up out of da rocks, but haven't seen it done before... I'm going the mount the end of the ram to the axle side track bar bolt & fab up a clamp like CRASH's to go around the drag link.

Matt

[vintagespeed]

The push/pull force will be applied to just one attachment point (steering arm) on the axle, instead of the force being split by two attachment points with a tie-rod mount and the 6 (at least) hi-steer arm attachment bolts. You'd be concentrating that force on, primarily a single side.

If your tire is up against a rock and you're pushing hard on the steering, it's possible you'd shear the bolts causing a massive chain reaction, most likely ripping your steering box from the framerail or snapping the sector shaft. Whichever is weakest in your setup.

[CRASH]

The push/pull force will be applied to just one attachment point (steering arm) on the axle, instead of the force being split by two attachment points with a tie-rod mount and the 6 (at least) hi-steer arm attachment bolts. You'd be concentrating that force on, primarily a single side.

If your tire is up against a rock and you're pushing hard on the steering, it's possible you'd shear the bolts causing a massive chain reaction, most likely ripping your steering box from the framerail or snapping the sector shaft. Whichever is weakest in your setup.

I disagree with every aspect of your post.

If one tire is up against a rock, you are still only pushing on a single attachment point, which is conected to all other attachment points by the tie rod and drag link, no matter where the hydraulic assist is mounted in the system.

How would the sector shaft see any increased load? Or the steering gear for that matter? Added hydraulic assist downstream of the steering box always DECREASES stress on those components, almost never increases them. The exception is if you do not have your steering stops/ram set up correctly, and the steering gear maxes before the ram/steering stops. Then you are stressing the sector shaft.

[BrettM]

I disagree with every aspect of your post.

If one tire is up against a rock, you are still only pushing on a single attachment point, which is conected to all other attachment points by the tie rod and drag link, no matter where the hydraulic assist is mounted in the system.

How would the sector shaft see any increased load? Or the steering gear for that matter? Added hydraulic assist downstream of the steering box always DECREASES stress on those components, almost never increases them. The exception is if you do not have your steering stops/ram set up correctly, and the steering gear maxes before the ram/steering stops. Then you are stressing the sector shaft.
:wstupid:

though his first paragraph does apply if you have cross-over steering rather than high-steer. if you had a draglink mounted ram with cross-over then all your steering force for turning both tires is being sent through the one high-steer arm.

[FarmerMatt]

I don't totally buy into what Vintage is saying either, but it doesn't matter to me much. I'll break a knuckle in half before I rip my high steer arm off... The arms are keyed into a keyway on top of the knuckle & than tied down to the original steering arm with a through bolt. I'm more worried about "strange" steering effects rather than strength. Here's a couple pics with the suspension fully compressed. There's room, but it'll be close just like the rest of the steering. Before I get any coments, the ram is just there for mockup & I will be putting it into double shear once I finalize placement...

http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/compressedpsfront.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/compresseddsfront.jpg

[ashmanjeepxj]

Watch out for that exhaust wrap, Mine caught fire last weekend:flame: sucked..
I dont think it helped much anyways...

I know a guy that broke two D60 knuckles with a ram on the drag link going to a high steer arm. He was one of the first to get a dedenbear (sp?).

I dont run high steer arms and run my ram on the tierod since I dont want to buy new knuckles...

[vintagespeed]

I don't totally buy into what Vintage is saying either......

I disagree with every aspect of your post.

:eeks1:

To clarifly....disconnect your draglink from the pitman arm and push/pull on it, try to turn the tires. It's much more difficult than turning them when pushing/pulling on the T/R. The why? is the question.

Crash, I did say that the way the sector shaft would have a problem is if there was a failure of the steering arm.

I'll still help you pick up the pieces. :D

[vetteboy]

To clarifly....disconnect your draglink from the pitman arm and push/pull on it, try to turn the tires. It's much more difficult than turning them when pushing/pulling on the T/R. The why? is the question.

This is only true if you have an inverted-T setup with the draglink at a significant angle, or a crossover setup where the distance from the TRE connection to the pivot point is smaller for the drag link than the tie rod. In his case they connect to the same point and the draglink is parallel (for the most part) so there won't be a significant difference.

[vintagespeed]

This is only true if you have an inverted-T setup with the draglink at a significant angle, or a crossover setup where the distance from the TRE connection to the pivot point is smaller for the drag link than the tie rod. In his case they connect to the same point and the draglink is parallel (for the most part) so there won't be a significant difference.

A parallel (parallel to what) draglink would be interesting to see.

[vetteboy]

A parallel (parallel to what) draglink would be interesting to see.

To the tie rod. Like on mine.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/100206/front1.JPG

[vintagespeed]

To the tie rod. Like on mine.


Well there ya go. You have my blessing to run hydraulic assist on your draglink, as long as you dont put coils on it and keep it on the jackstands so it stays parallel. ;)

[Captain Ron]

...
How would the sector shaft see any increased load? Or the steering gear for that matter? Added hydraulic assist downstream of the steering box always DECREASES stress on those components, almost never increases them. The exception is if you do not have your steering stops/ram set up correctly, and the steering gear maxes before the ram/steering stops. Then you are stressing the sector shaft.

I can think of another.

Plumb the cylinder backwards.

:D

--ron

[FarmerMatt]

I can think of another.

Plumb the cylinder backwards.

:D

--ron

That'll be a good arm workout...

Vintage,
Both my track bar & drag link are parallel along with being the same length which means that they'll always be parallel on jackstands or twisted in the rocks... It doesn't matter now anyway as I just couldn't fit everything where I wanted in that config. I mounted the ram on the axle trackbar mount a little lower & will be going to the tierod.

Matt

[vintagespeed]

The other factor to the breakage concern is the type of pump you're planning on running. If you're using the stock Saginaw pump, the pump should go into bypass before breaking anything.

That's the upside to pumps made for an automotive steering application, they bypass. I used a 4cyl Saginaw on my full hydro and it worked great, went into bypass when the steering stops hit & never bent/broke anything and still had plenty of power to push the Junk sideways when up against something.

[Captain Ron]

Bump for Matt. :D

Any conclusions?

--ron

[Goatman]

Yeah, Matt, I'm curious what you're thinking bout doing.

[FarmerMatt]

It worked well enough that I'm doing it again... I dug through my "junk" pile & found an old steering gear that I'll rebuild & tap & put it all back together the way I had it. I broke the back bolt ear off the steering gear in JV, but I suspect it was cracked before I even got there. The steering is a little slow for the fast stuff (I'm using the 2" ram that came with the front end), but I was never wanting for any extra "power" in the rocks. I'm limited in fast stuff anyway now because I'm running out of HP trying to turn 40's. The only wayI can solve the "slow" is to go with either a smaller ram or a bigger pump & it's just not bad enough for me to spend the money. If I do go to spend the money it'll be on a full hydro setup, but that'll be when my steering lets loose again.

Matt

[BrettM]

have you tried any of the DIY pump upgrades? http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html

[FarmerMatt]

have you tried any of the DIY pump upgrades? http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html

Yep, that's on the list to do.

[Goatman]

I went with the 4.5" pulley on the buggy, with the new TC pump from PSC, and it was always fast enough and good at idle. It just gradually quit working as the system heated up with use, and I have a good cooler.

The system on the yellow XJ works good, but is just a touch slow if I need a quick turn at close to idle, and that's with an AGR pump and Tommy Lee box and ram. I think if I go to a 4.5" pulley it will be just right.

[Mike L]

I went with the 4.5" pulley on the buggy, with the new TC pump from PSC, and it was always fast enough and good at idle. It just gradually quit working as the system heated up with use, and I have a good cooler.
The system on the yellow XJ works good, but is just a touch slow if I need a quick turn at close to idle, and that's with an AGR pump and Tommy Lee box and ram. I think if I go to a 4.5" pulley it will be just right.

I have the PSC big bore box, high output TC pump with their pulley installed. It has been sitting in the garage for 4 months now. I need to take the time and install them. I currently have a stock box and pump with a big cooler. I have had a problem with boiling out the fluid after a JV trail these last few trips out.

-Mike

[vintagespeed]

have you tried any of the DIY pump upgrades? http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html

I did this on 35s and quickly learned that while it provided plenty of "umph" for turning the tires, it also built heat quickly. If you go this route, add a large capacity cooler/fan.

edit:

As to the box ripping off the frame, has anyone tried u-bolting around the steering box and back through the frame rails (and SBS2 or CROK plates whatever) to provide a more solid mounting method than just the cast tabs?