Range of govt power

[RichP]

I'm amazed at the extent of the power of the courts. Example is that pervert who was prosecuted for various kinds of perverted sex he had OUTSIDE THE US.
At what point can they pass a law that restricts free speech so you leave the US and go somewhere else at which point they can prosecute you for it. It's early yet and I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

[goodburbon]

Isn't that the governmental equivalent of pulling someone over and giving them a ticket for 65 in a 25 mph zone, because they were clocked going 65 on the highway?

[WB9YZU]

US courts believe they have power everywhere. It is not uncommon for people to sue people and governments for events that happened outside US juristition.

The idea being that their assets that flow though the US can be frozen or confiscated.

The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

[WB9YZU]

Isn't that the governmental equivalent of pulling someone over and giving them a ticket for 65 in a 25 mph zone, because they were clocked going 65 on the highway?

Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

[JNickel101]

...hell, I'm still trying to figure out how we're supposed to afford Constitutional rights to non-US citizens - living in or outside of this country. Either way, it doesn't make sense to me....personally, I think if you break the law, your "rights" go right out the window....

[wolfpackjeeper]

Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

I read his statement as being completely different. In your case you deserved the ticket, he just waited until you were rightfully in his jurisdiction AND committing the infraction.

He is saying that it would be like you doing 65 on the highway, then exiting and moving to a local road and complying with the local limit of 25mph, where the cop ticketed you as if you doing 65 on the hwy mattered now.

[CherBear]

Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

Well you still did break the law in HIS jurisdiction. At least he gave you a warning.

[WB9YZU]

I read his statement as being completely different. In your case you deserved the ticket, he just waited until you were rightfully in his jurisdiction AND committing the infraction.

He is saying that it would be like you doing 65 on the highway, then exiting and moving to a local road and complying with the local limit of 25mph, where the cop ticketed you as if you doing 65 on the hwy mattered now.

OK, Gotcha. You're right, I read it a bit different than that. Like one was speeding on the freeway, then exited and was picked up by a LEO while complying with the local speedlimit.

Ron

[WB9YZU]

Well you still did break the law in HIS jurisdiction. At least he gave you a warning.

Actually, the vehicle was out of compliance with a regulation. I broke no law, so no crime was commited.

It was a bad example // I withdraw it //

Ron

[alex22]

The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

In that case the murderer (suspect) should be extradited back to Mexico for trial in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. Even though he would most likely rather be in a US prison than a Mexican prison.

[WB9YZU]

That's where the reciprocity deal comes in.

I believe Mexico has to request that the suspect be extradited. Since he's a US citizen we just can't kick him out.

Remember the case of the GM worker that they found out was a SS guard in a concentration camp and had not gone though the post war trials? He was a naturalized citizen, so Germany had to request that he be extradited. He had a clean record here.

Ron

[JNickel101]

Isn't there something called statute of limitations? I remember hearing about that "case", but was wondering how he could still be tried/punished for it after so many years.

I'm not advocating it....I think if you commit the crime, you should be tried/punished accordingly, no matter what the timeframe....

EDIT: just looked it up - "Crimes against humanity" have no statute of limitations. Excellent....

[RichP]

The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

What if, for example, murder was legal in mexico, should you be prosecuted here for doing a normal thing in mexico just because it's a crime here ? To be tried and convicted of a crime HERE that may or may not be a crime somewhere else where you committed it. Thats the part that bothers me.
Who was it, Gary Glitter that got busted in vietnam for sex with a minor so other countries pretty much have the sex trades covered legally, how do we get off with arresting and prosecuting a crime that was commited somewhere else and may not be crime there.

[goodburbon]

A better example would be a woman from a strict muslim country traveling to the west and being arrested when she returns for wearing a bikini while out of country...

[WB9YZU]

Hmmm...

Rich, do you have a link to a specific case?

Also IIRC, Gary Glitter got caught in Vietnam for underage sex with a minor in Vietnam, by Vietnamees(sp!) authorites. I also believe he was still in country.

Goodburbon: You need to provide pictures with your examples :D

Ron

[goodburbon]

We're talking about muslim women here Ron, Picture chewbacca in a bikini.

[RichP]

Hmmm...

Rich, do you have a link to a specific case?

Also IIRC, Gary Glitter got caught in Vietnam for underage sex with a minor in Vietnam, by Vietnamees(sp!) authorites. I also believe he was still in country.

Goodburbon: You need to provide pictures with your examples :D

Ron

The one that triggered my posting was the guy who US authorities arrested last week on 'sex tour' charges, it was on CNN for a couple of days. It just sits wrong with me that the US can prosecute someone for a so called crime that was done outside the country and may have been perfectly legal under that countries laws.
That would be valid for someone under UCMJ but a civilian, not real comfortable with that.

[wolfpackjeeper]

A better example would be a woman from a strict muslim country traveling to the west and being arrested when she returns for wearing a bikini while out of country...

There they would say that the law of Islam is not limited by boundaries.

[fscrig75]

The one that triggered my posting was the guy who US authorities arrested last week on 'sex tour' charges, it was on CNN for a couple of days. It just sits wrong with me that the US can prosecute someone for a so called crime that was done outside the country and may have been perfectly legal under that countries laws.
That would be valid for someone under UCMJ but a civilian, not real comfortable with that.


I think he with 2 other guys set up the trip while they were still in America and specifically requested minors. I also think the Vnam authorities contacted the FBI about this.
Maybe our Gov't requested to prosecute these guys and Vnam agreed.

[RichP]

I think he with 2 other guys set up the trip while they were still in America and specifically requested minors. I also think the Vnam authorities contacted the FBI about this.
Maybe our Gov't requested to prosecute these guys and Vnam agreed.

Yea, I agree, they should have cut their nuts off, what they did somewhere else though and to get prosecuted here, thats what bothers me. I don't like that kind of precedent, if Vn passed and our govt decided to have a whack at them thats seems to me like some variation of double jeopardy.

[fscrig75]

Yea, I agree, they should have cut their nuts off, what they did somewhere else though and to get prosecuted here, thats what bothers me. I don't like that kind of precedent, if Vn passed and our govt decided to have a whack at them thats seems to me like some variation of double jeopardy.

I'm not a fan of this either. It sucks that it is this type of crime, since I don't care what they do at all to those type of people and hope they always get the worst possible sentence in the worst prison.

Didn't most countries pass and adopt some accord or law that makes it a crime to solicite(sp) or arrange to meet minors over the internet, and if it goes international then the countries probably have the right to request to proscecute, maybe i don't know just guessing.

[JNickel101]

There they would say that the law of Islam is not limited by boundaries.

Depends....you should see how many Saudis travel outside of SA to party and get crazy....their theory is that when they're not in their "kingdom", Allah can't see them, so all is fair.

As for Muslim women and chewbacca....depends where they're from. I saw some beautiful Muslim women in Bahrain, UAE, and Qatar....interestingly enough, these are some of the more "liberal" Islamic-esque places.

[RichP]

Depends....you should see how many Saudis travel outside of SA to party and get crazy....their theory is that when they're not in their "kingdom", Allah can't see them, so all is fair.

As for Muslim women and chewbacca....depends where they're from. I saw some beautiful Muslim women in Bahrain, UAE, and Qatar....interestingly enough, these are some of the more "liberal" Islamic-esque places.

One of the reasons that the Saudi's and others got so ticked off when sadam invaded Kuwait was because Kuwait was the party town for the mid east, thats were all the bars and nite clubs were.

As far as many of the muslim women are concerned, kind of like a box of chocolates, you never know whats under the covers till you sample it, some may be like a maraschino cherry, some may be like a sweet cream and then there's the chewy ones :D :D :D
One of my customers is a nudist resort, after doing a few service calls there I suddenly realized that if you took 200 average people at a shopping mall and had them strip you'd end up with about the same cross section as were at the nudist camp, some cherrys, some creams and some really tough caramels.
:D

This having to obey and be held criminally liable for US laws while you are traveling in another country is what bothers me.

[Darky]

I think what Fscrig was suggesting was that the planning was done here in the US and they could then be tried for conspiracy to engage in sexual acts with a minor. What were the actual charges brought against him?

[RichP]

I think what Fscrig was suggesting was that the planning was done here in the US and they could then be tried for conspiracy to engage in sexual acts with a minor. What were the actual charges brought against him?

Thats exactly what I mean, this conspiracy BS is another one, makes for a nice cover all the bases thing. The same with LE going for all the media coverage, like those 4 students last week accused of gang rape, thank god somebody had a camera phone and recorded it or those 4 kids would be up the creek and bending over by now.

[RichP]

Thats exactly what I mean, this conspiracy BS is another one, makes for a nice cover all the bases thing. The same with LE going for all the media coverage, like those 4 students last week accused of gang rape, thank god somebody had a camera phone and recorded it or those 4 kids would be up the creek and bending over by now.

I always liked this quote:
“Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men.
The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed …nor enforced or objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt.
Now that’s the system…that’s the game…”

-Ayn Rand

(’Atlas Shrugged’ 1957)

[Darky]

Thats exactly what I mean, this conspiracy BS is another one, makes for a nice cover all the bases thing. The same with LE going for all the media coverage, like those 4 students last week accused of gang rape, thank god somebody had a camera phone and recorded it or those 4 kids would be up the creek and bending over by now.
As far as conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to have sex with a minor, etc, I see no problem. If the plans aren't made to go have sex with underage kids, those underage kids get one less person inside of them. Now, if the guys are being tried for having sex with the kids, that would be a problem.

[goodburbon]

As far as conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to have sex with a minor, etc, I see no problem. If the plans aren't made to go have sex with underage kids, those underage kids get one less person inside of them. Now, if the guys are being tried for having sex with the kids, that would be a problem.


The only problem with that is that it becomes a bit of a "thought police" scenario. There is no actual crime commited, so make it a crime to think about commiting a crime.

It's like these 3 "terrorists" in court, they hadn't actually put anything together that the FBI can find yet, but they had most of the stuff, were looking for the rest. You can make a bomb out of damn near anything, is it a crime to know how and own the materials? Or is it a crime only to actually make the bomb? If it is a crime to know how and to have the materials, there are a great many of us out here who will be putting on our tin-foil hats.

[tbburg]

The flip side of the US using some kind of 'international jurisdiction is that other countries may decide the their courts have jurisdiction here. A lot of what we do here that qualifies as "our rights" will get you a prison sentence in a lot of the rest of the world.

I think the example you guys should be looking at is the Spanish courts that keep attempting to indite US solders and officials for specific "criminal acts" committed in Iraq.

Ever serve in Iraq? Think about visiting Europe? Maybe get arrested and extradited to Spain to stand trial for combat operations? Be a hell of a vacation,....

[Darky]

The only problem with that is that it becomes a bit of a "thought police" scenario. There is no actual crime commited, so make it a crime to think about commiting a crime.

It's like these 3 "terrorists" in court, they hadn't actually put anything together that the FBI can find yet, but they had most of the stuff, were looking for the rest. You can make a bomb out of damn near anything, is it a crime to know how and own the materials? Or is it a crime only to actually make the bomb? If it is a crime to know how and to have the materials, there are a great many of us out here who will be putting on our tin-foil hats.
I don't think it comes down to thinking about committing the crime but moreso taking the steps necessary to commit said crime. Like calling from America to another country and arranging to visit and requesting that underage prostitutes be made available. ie: Soliciting sex from a prostitute is illegal even though you haven't actually had sex with said prostitute.