Pat Tillman's brother

[SBrad001]

Wow!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2633793

**edit**

Here's his entire article

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/

[TRNDRVR]

Cool! :dunno:

Who the hell was Pat Tillman?

[ECKSJAY]

Cool! :dunno:

Who the hell was Pat Tillman?

Football player turned Army Ranger who died in Afghanistan.

[Gil BullyKatz]

Who the hell was Pat Tillman?

I'm actually surprised you didn't know...

At one time or another...

he's been used in both pro and anti-war efforts

[Kurt04]

I read the whole SI story on him, he was a hell of a guy.

[TRNDRVR]

Football player....That explains that.

Have never been much of a ball fan!

[Gil BullyKatz]

I never knew he was a football player until I read about him giving up millions in a pro football career in order to "serve his country" shortly after 9/11...

Noble intentions he had.

I also wondered how much of his stint in the 2/75 was PR...

He had to earn the beret like everyone else didn't he?

:dunno:

The friendly fire clusterfawk and ensuing cover-up did not help the DoD's public image.

[w_howey]

I never knew he was a football player until I read about him giving up millions in a pro football career in order to "serve his country"...



Realistically, he didn't 'give up millions'

The guy was a safety for the Cardinals and probably wouldn't have made the team another season or two. He wasn't the most talented guy, but he certainly outworked most of the more talented players.

[johnlv6]

Many of those thoughts have been rolling around my head for a few years now. The question that keeps coming to mind for me is...how are we going to be remembered 50+ years from now?

[8Mud]

IMO he was a warrior doing what warriors do. Pro war, anti war is kind of irrelevant. As who's bullet it was that killed him. His brother is trying to find something or someone to blame.
IMO anybody who is pro war has a screw loose, but I am kind of dogmatic about the whole thing. There are going to be conflicts, always have been wars and warriors to fight them, probably always will be. No amount of idealism will change the nature of things.
The overly brave and idealistic are often fatalities, when the fit hits the shan.

[Kurt04]

Realistically, he didn't 'give up millions'

The guy was a safety for the Cardinals and probably wouldn't have made the team another season or two. He wasn't the most talented guy, but he certainly outworked most of the more talented players.
Maybe not "millions" but even being an Amature football player is a much easier life than being an Army Ranger.

[ladywolf]

Maybe not "millions" but even being an Amature football player is a much easier life than being an Army Ranger.


he also chose the life of an army ranger. he knew the dangers, and accepted the risks.

[SBrad001]

he also chose the life of an army ranger. he knew the dangers, and accepted the risks.


I don't think that either Pat or Kevin took issue with the risks involved in what they chosed.

The way I read his letter is that he feels that his an his brother's honor and commitment to the protection of this nation was 'manipulated' and betrayed by our government when they were sent to Iraq. Which he now says was an unjust invasion built upon half truths and fact manipulation.

[mdl]

He is actually a member here you know.. I forget his username though, I'm sure he will chime in.

[WVXJ]

WORD, Kevin Tillman!!!
Like a breath of fresh air amidst the piss fog of blindly patriotic, ignorant, illogical ideologues that have persisted over the U.S. population for the last 6yrs..........
Well put sir, and thank you.

[8Mud]

WORD, Kevin Tillman!!!
Like a breath of fresh air amidst the piss fog of blindly patriotic, ignorant, illogical ideologues that have persisted over the U.S. population for the last 6yrs..........
Well put sir, and thank you.
I grant you the current administration has done a poor job of manipulating the facts. There press corp seems to be sub standard. The last administration did a much better job of manipulating the facts (or seasoning the BS).
If you believe a very small percentage of anything you are told to believe, IMO you are being nieve.
Just an oppinon, but wouldn't it be kind of stupid to announce your true objectives to the enemy over national television. Sure the public has a right to know. But how the heck do you tell them, the public, without telling the enemy your true objectives at the same time?
Just a WAG (wild arsed guess) but I've thought from the beginning Iran is the focus of the whole thing. Actually the focal point of much of the turmoil in the middle east, clear to the Phillipean sea and much of East Africa, clear into Europe (both sides of the Urals).
The US just about has them surrounded. Iraq, Afganistan and other hot spots may just be preludes to the major effort.

Reality check!!! There is stuff from 35-40 years ago (Vietnam) that is still classified. There are Presidential papers that are sealed until the passing of a President. Some may never be opened.

Sorry you feel so bitter about being lied too. But seriously guy, just how much do you actually believe, that comes out of anybodies mouth. Personally, I watch what they do and listen very little to what they say. Though I do have a tendancy to pay attention to what is not said or seems to be obvious but not discussed.

Last oppinion, but maybe our attention should be on the wounded returning soldiers. We all have a responsibilty to make sure they are taken care of, reintegrated and receive the care they need for wounds suffered.
When the governement starts playing the budget game and starts looking to save money in one sector to be spent in another, the Vets may suffer.
Being lied too by the governement doesn't bother me nearly as much as the thought of a Vet needing care he isn't receiving. While some state representitive is trying to get a road or bridge built to nowhere in his district, so some contractor will make a large donation to his re-election campaigne.
If some representitive is looking for construction kickbacks, maybe they should be from building a few new Veterans hospitals, vocational schools and campus space for Vets.

[WVXJ]

Bitter about being lied too? Who? Kevin Tillman? Personally, I think you'd have to be retarded to not be mad about it. The lies of this admin. have nothing to do with battle field logistics, military secrets, etc., and have everything to do with money. I think people expect the government to do some things without telling, what they don't expect is their representation to be made up of complete idiots.

[ECKSJAY]

what they don't expect is their representation to be made up of complete idiots.

With the current electoral system in place, I feel quite the contrary. I take it in stride that every administration coming into office during modern years is going to have a huge corporate agenda, regardless of the party affiliation. IMHO, you have to be a retard to see otherwise. ;) Just so happens that in this case the pieces fit perfectly to have vocal balances on the media vs. anti-terror war sides. I find it difficult to NOT choose by partisan standards, but I tend to sway to the conservative side in keeping the war overseas...yet become slightly liberal on the homefront with privacy at the top of the list.

Iran? Not a big threat, IMHO. We're talking about a country that's very Westernized and won't gain wide support. I get the feeling that the vocal minority in power right now will be taken out by an uprising of their own people. ;) That is, if you can get them to fight. Never worried about Iran...

[WVXJ]

Whats really funny is how the republitards continue to change their argument of support from total denial of corporate interests to obvious or planned or expected corporate agendas.............

[WVXJ]

Maybe alzhiemers is the real problem with the republican't party............they seem to have the memory capacity of piss ants.

[8Mud]

I tend to think anybody who lets others define there position, argues bi polar arguments defined by others and tries to simplify the whole process in one liners and blurbs, may have let somebody narrow there perspective to the point of irrelevance.

You'll have to define retard, is it somebody who refuses to jump on the band wagon, no matter who is driving or where it's going?

IMO I've heard the Democrates take just about every position under the sun in the last year or so and change there positions more often than there underwear. if they would take one position and stick with it for awhile, maybe I could make up my mind if I agree with them or not. There rhetoric seems to take them just about any old place, whichever direction the winds blowing at the moment.

The Taliban was praticing five years ago, almost exactly where the Iatola had Iran 20 years ago. Muslim religious fundamentalism was largely reinvented in Iran, the country was purged, controlled, then in stage two, somewhat liberalized. Much like the Chinese ten year plans.
The fundamentalist doctrine was exported all over, almost a quarter of the globe.
It's not hard to see the paralells between the Communist movement after 1950 or so and what is happening in the middle east and surrounds today. Surrogates are often the front battle line. Kind of like an arsonist setting so many fires, in so many places, the fire department hasn't a chance of effectively fighting them.
You can let it run it's course, maybe die of inertia, maybe implode or try to contain it before it becomes a problem too big to deal with, short of a world war.
You better believe the Iranian leadership still believes the USA is the Devil and it's there duty to promote it's downfall, by whatever means possible. A new world order, with Muslim fundamentalism as the anchor and them in charge. They have a lot of leverage.
Sadam was a ganster thug megalomaniac, who tried to export his meaness just about everytime he could marshal the resources. He was kind of a check on Iran though, in some ways. Conflicting ideaoligies for sure.

[Darky]

wow lots of big words!


Doesn't make you any more intelligent than anyone else though


Edit: Sorry, forgot to click quote message. This was more for WVXJ and his overuse of large words to sound more intelligent than those he's mocking. Everyone does it, but being a conservative leaning person myself I chose him as my example. I find it hard to take anyone's argument seriously when all they have to say is cute little sayings like "republitards" and republican'ts" or "if you think {insert topic here} you're obviously a retard". If that's all you can come up with, you're a retard....;)

[WVXJ]

Big words???? Now that is funny..........................wow. ok.

If you think (insert every decision Bush made after 911) was a good plan of action, then yeah, you might be retarded.:)
But i would say Kevin Tillman has even more reason to feel that way than most of us.
The British medical journal, The Lancet has published a report claiming the war has killed over 600,000 Iraqi people. Not one of which had anything to do with 911. Thats no small number. Gone, murdered, and for what? And no one even seems to care, that's retarded.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
And then there's all the American kids who are dead, one of which happens to be Kevin Tillmans brother, for no clear objective, and for no real accomplishments. And then there's this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15361462/?GT1=8618
clearly this little fiasco has been mapped out by the retarded.:)
............and i only mean to rib the repubs a little, don't be so touchy.........., and no offense to real retards either, for crying out loud. I'm just tired of trying to justify all the mistakes the Bush boys have made and continue to make, and i know not all repubs agree with everything they've done either. You guys know i gotta vent when there's a political thread............

[SBrad001]

wow lots of big words!


Doesn't make you any more intelligent than anyone else though




Hey! I went(still going to) college to learn how to use all those big words! :D

[8Mud]

Maybe I just live a little nearer the day to day action. When Sadam was making all the noise, bombast and threats, while trying to shoot down aircraft enforcing the no fly zone and other stuff. Packs of Muslim youngsters would push old people off the sidewalks. Three peice suits were popular with many of the Muslim youths, along with stainless Smith and Wessons. You'd see the same guys standing around in front of the Mosque, that you noticed selling dope at the local highschool. I never did figure out the connection between the gangsters and the fundamentalists/extremist (whatever you want to call them), but it was noticeable.
911 was a catastrophy, without a doubt. But it isn't the only thing going on.
I spent an evening last week drinking coffee and swapping tales with a former bodyguard for the Shah of Iran.
After Clinton tossed a few cruise missels at Osama's training camp in Afganistan. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.
When 911 happened, you could actually feel the Muslim community duck. The streets were pretty much deserted, the women stayed at home.
Then the Afganistan invasion, you could hear the oh chit! exclamation from the Muslim community.
Then the invasion of Iraq, you could feel the, this is getting out of hand thoughts, of the Muslim community.
You can feel the fear, you can see the gangsters (and even the brick layers) changing track, worrying more about business, instead of politics (at least publicly). The thugs don't stand outside the Mosques and glare at passersby anymore or yell insults at them. The Mullas and Imams keep the rhetoric toned down a bit, for the most part.
Isreal bombing Beruit back at least ten years. Really overreacting to provications. Also sent a pretty clear message.
I don't really have a clue where it's heading, but the situation is definitely fluid. But better than it was, at least around here.
The wave of change was moving east to West, now it's moving West to East.
There is a new order in the brewing, better or worse only time will tell.
If the US folds it's tent and goes home, I can see things turning to chit jiffy quick.
You can try and blame it on Bush, but the whole thing has been building for decades or longer. If Bush hadn't of pushed back when he did, no telling where we would be today (or tomorrow). But at least here, temporarily things are calm, people are still kind of holding there breath though.

[Darky]

Not trying to jump straight at you WVXJ, just speaking about the people I constantly hear that same line from. Is gets tiresome hearing people going back and forth saying "you're retarded", "no you're retarded". I agree Bush had made mistakes and think he most likely wasn't thinking of 9/11 as the real reason for Iraq, but at the same time, we got rid of a dictator who has used mustard gas on his own people in the past, inades his neighbors for fun, and laughs at the UN and their requests to allow their inspectors in. Yes there's bad guys everywhere, but not all of them are on the global scale like Saddam or OBL...

[SBrad001]

Not trying to jump straight at you WVXJ, just speaking about the people I constantly hear that same line from. Is gets tiresome hearing people going back and forth saying "you're retarded", "no you're retarded". I agree Bush had made mistakes and think he most likely wasn't thinking of 9/11 as the real reason for Iraq, but at the same time, we got rid of a dictator who has used mustard gas on his own people in the past, inades his neighbors for fun, and laughs at the UN and their requests to allow their inspectors in. Yes there's bad guys everywhere, but not all of them are on the global scale like Saddam or OBL...

BlackSport, have you heard about Darfur in Sudan?

"... At least 200,000 people have died in Darfur as a result of what the Bush administration rightly describes as genocide. Two million ..."
http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/living/15835480.htm

Saddam was bad, I'll grant anyone that. I'm just wondering what your take is on this one?

[Darky]

Like I said, not really on a global scale. Yes, its terrible, and probably worse than anything Saddam did to his people, but they're also probably not dealing any kind of WMDs (remember my earlier statement about Saddam refusing to allow UN inspectors in to check for that kind of thing, and also his confirmed use against the Kurds) nor are they involving other countries all that much.

Honestly, I think if Bush would just come out and admit that his biggest reason for going into Iraq was to finish what his dad started in Gulf War 1, he'd catch a lot less crap for it all...

[SBrad001]

Honestly, I think if Bush would just come out and admit that his biggest reason for going into Iraq was to finish what his dad started in Gulf War 1, he'd catch a lot less crap for it all...

I couldn't agree more. I would add that he would get even less crap if he and his administration had actually planned this thing out, instead of thinking we would be welcomed as the 'great' liberators.

Oh yeah, I'm not too fond of his domestic policies as it pretains to civil liberties and what not either.

[Hellbent]

that's a very good piece......very poignant.