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Flex vs. traction and limiting straps

J

JnJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
San Antonio TX
WARNING, GARAGE POSSER FLEX SHOTS

I decided to flex the POS up with the highlift to get an idea about usinging limiting straps and the balance between the front and rearends.
flextest1.jpg

flextest2.jpg

flextest3.jpg


From the pictures you can see the frontend has good flex, and the rear is pretty sad. The rear leafs are new, stiff, and the shackle is still leaned forward (even on the "stuffed" side), so there is hope that they will breakin and loosen up some (fingers crossed).
Back to the frontend, you can see the front coil is unseated, this comes just a few inches before the shocks are maxed out (shocks are 1" away from being maxed). I really dont think the frontends provides any traction once that coil is unseated, providing no down force on the tire. So, I figure the limiting strap should be just long enough to let it drop to the point at which the coil becomes unseated. Any input about this is appreciated.

Overall I'm happy with how the suspension is working out so far, still gotta get it on a trail and see how it does.
 
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Hmmm.....I have noticed other shots of extreme front end articulation with the spring 'unseated' This is not an entirely bad thing. Your wheel is being forced down by the opposite wheel anyway (okay...this is only to a certain degree but still there is enough force for a locked front end to work)
I have yet to see anyone using a limiting strap to solve the unseated spring problem. Straps on the rear spring pack are a bit more common. Sometimes to solve lean angle and sometimes to keep the spring pack together!
Have you taken this set up out to play yet? Notice anything unacceptable about how it works?
But you need to know one thing....this is just one opinion and its worth about what you pay for it!! :D
 
Seeing as your front coil does not drop down far enough to fall out, I would not use limiting straps, remember a tire that is touching the ground has more traction than one that is lifted in the air, may not be much more but it is still more
 
John, try lifting that 'unloaded' tire off the ground. It wont budge, there is alot of force on that tire, even though the body weight isn't on it. 4 on the ground is better than 3 period.
 
John,
Unless you are having problems with binding, I would not put outboard limiting straps on the front. I say out board straps meaning one near each coil. They would limit your drop at times you might actually benefit from it. What I would do is a triangulated strap set up with a single centered axle strap location and a frame mount on each side. This will still let your axle articulate well but limit the spring extension on steep climbs keeping the weight shifted more over the front.

Check with Goatman about his set up. It works really well and can be adjusted as needed or removed when not needed.

Bones :skull1:

If it doesn't bind and the spring doesn't fall off is front flex really a problem?
lh10-vi.jpg
 
I didn't mention the fact that the strap would keep my shocks from becoming the limiting factor which could damage the shocks. In the picture the highlift is maxed out, the front flex is not, in other words, the tire is no where near ready to come off the ground yet.
Bones, I have planned for a center strap to prevent unloading during climbs, but I'm also worried about maxing out the shocks on full droop and the need for the tire to droop that much with no real down force for traction. Do I really need more front droop then what I have in the pictures?
Fullsize, I think if I had something to flex it more with (highlift maxed out), it would go until the spring falls out. Oh ya, I couldn't go any higher in the garage either. :)
I'm looking for opinions, so keep them coming.
 
John, you need to step out here and think outside the box. I think you need some shock towers stickin' out the hood. Only you can say if it has too much flex or not. I'm a fan of flex, a lot of folks aren't.

Limiting straps are a good thing to keep from destroying your shocks and their mounts. I've been through a few sets recently cuz I wasn't running straps. I've got 'em on now though.
 
Shocks are not bothered by exstention at the speeds 4X4s generate. That is to say that when our shocks reach full exstention it is not with much force or impact. On the other hand using your shocks as an upper (compression) stop is not such a good idea....these loads are often much greater. Now before others here jump on me for taking too simple of an approach on the exstention issue...it should be said that some shocks don't handle either situation well....but, we have been using them as limiting straps for years...the manufacturers know this and most quality shocks can handle it....
 
you are gonna want to have some kind of centered limiting strap on your front axle.....

I got one on my raduis arm set-up after moab, and attempted a tall ledge climb, and while underway, the limiting strap took hold, and it felt like the ND offesive line jumped on my hood...

only wish I wopulda had that thing installed last moab.....woulda helped keep goats yapper shut
 
you know if you unscrew the bolt were the hard line meets the soft line and make it strait then bolt it down you get about 2 or 3 more inches of limiting strap.
 
JnJ I'd have to agree with Jump that having the shox top out at extreme droop isn't a terrible thing in the low-speed rockcrawl rig. Now for a desert racer, it might be very bad though.

As they are mounted now (I see you have used 'eye' type upper shox mts) how much uptravel is left in the shock before it bottoms out?

My setup is slightly weird...my shox mount to the side of the LCA...a few inches lower than the stock axle BP mount, and I am using a upper mount like yours (Rusty's 11" travel hydros with 'eye' mounts upper & lower) I ran out of shock down-travel way before the suspension ran out of potential flex.

As a 'quick fix' I ran to the hardware store and bought a pair of 2" "Extenders" which are hex shaped and threaded all the way through - same pitch as the upper mount bolts. With these in between the fenders and the mounts, I still don't bottom out the shock, but it adds a bunch more droop (the +2" at the shock = a bit more at the wheel)

I can see where a center strap would help the front from unloading on hillclimbs (or jumps) and help keep traction on the front tires. It may take some tuning to optimize how much limiting you need.
 
Oneton, shock hoops through the hood are so yesterday. Maybe quick disconnect shocks. I do like flex, but I think there is a balance between usable flex and traction. I'm trying to avoid wasting shocks and such trying to maintain unnecessary flex. I'll have to get it out on a test run or two to really know what to do about the straps.
Beez, I do plan to run the centered strap.
PhatXJ, unfortunately, my dang brake lines are to long to act as limiting straps. Maybe I should invest in some shorter ones.
 
woody said:
JnJ I'd have to agree with Jump that having the shox top out at extreme droop isn't a terrible thing in the low-speed rockcrawl rig. Now for a desert racer, it might be very bad though.

As they are mounted now (I see you have used 'eye' type upper shox mts) how much uptravel is left in the shock before it bottoms out?

My setup is slightly weird...my shox mount to the side of the LCA...a few inches lower than the stock axle BP mount, and I am using a upper mount like yours (Rusty's 11" travel hydros with 'eye' mounts upper & lower) I ran out of shock down-travel way before the suspension ran out of potential flex.

As a 'quick fix' I ran to the hardware store and bought a pair of 2" "Extenders" which are hex shaped and threaded all the way through - same pitch as the upper mount bolts. With these in between the fenders and the mounts, I still don't bottom out the shock, but it adds a bunch more droop (the +2" at the shock = a bit more at the wheel)

I can see where a center strap would help the front from unloading on hillclimbs (or jumps) and help keep traction on the front tires. It may take some tuning to optimize how much limiting you need.
Click to expand...

Woody, these are 13" travel shocks, in the pictures above, the shock is extended to 12", so it could go another inch before full extension. The mounts are setup for these shocks so that on compression the bumpstop will hit just before the shock bottoms out (this is in theory, I did a lot of measuring, but I have not actually bottomed out the compression yet). So, extending the shock mount is not really an option. On my old suspension, the shocks (front and rear) were my limiting factors, but since I'm building this suspension myself, I would like to do it without that kind of compromise if I can. If I had to use the shock as a limiting factor, I would much rather it be for droop then compression.
 
okay, well if you are doing a centered limitng strap up front, fine, it will help loads...

otherwise, your garage science project hasn't proven straps are necessary on the corners.

keep going, you can also add them later.

I think you should at least shoot for more travel....

the sucky part on a cherokee is trying to get the REAR to behave at higher lift heights.....I'm talking the ability to flex without having to have crazy body roll.....thats the challenge
 
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