Completely lost with starter issues

Well a while back I posted about putting a new motor in due to bad rings and excessive blowby..... once I had starter problems it kicked me in the ass to get in done. Before I pulled the motor and rebuilt from the ground up, when turning over the motor all I would get was a single click coming from the starter relay box, and before this happened I was getting a really slow crank for the starter which would speed up after holding the key over for a second or two, seemed as if the battery was week and then got a boost of power to crank fully, I have two red tops that are almost new and checked out to be perfect. The starter did not turn whatsoever finally, and after a week of parking on hill I decided to do the motor. I originally thought the starter was bad completely and went and got a new one.

After all said and is done with the new motor I am still having the exact same starter problem, I can not even get the motor to crank, I had the old starter tested and it turned out to be fine which shocked me. When I turn the key I get a click from the relay, and no starter turn, even when the starter is pulled out of the flywheel and hooked up I still do not get any sort of turnover. All electronics in the vehicle function fine. With the new starter I am having the exact same problem, put the old one in and no difference. I pulled all of my main cables and they are in fine shape.... I replaced my main relay for the starter and no change, which leaves me to think something is up with my ignition switch, however when I turn the key I get the click to the relay and my gauges drop as they have always have when starting... just no crank! Fuel pump is working fine, guages, lights, electronics, and radio. I am not an EE major so I am lost of where to trace the problem to..... I spent the last 4 hours tracing wires disconnecting and reconnecting and no go..... I am about to pull it into a shop and see if they can figure out what the hell is going on, in all of my years of jeeps I have never had an issue like this.

Info:

90xj 2 door Laredo
new block was out of a 95 TJ completely rebuilt from the ground up

Anyone have any ideas or clues to where I can start testing with a meter..... my only concern is my steering column is a little loose to a hard hit in Moab where my seatbelt did not lock and I flew into the column which is now a tiny bit more loose than before, but nothing seriously noticable.... its the only thing that I could consider being a problem if a wire were pinched.....

Also.... any links to service manuals and complete harness diagrams for this year of jeep? are they out there? I have been able to download complete service manuals for all my vehicles, but have not found any links for my Jeep.

I appreciate any info offered!!!!:wow:

When you find out what is causing this I'd sure be interested in knowing.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1005613

If you're sure it's the starter relay is clicking, you can rule out the steering column and the NSS as possible culprits as it will only receive a signal to do anything if they are functioning. I would, however, make sure it is the starter relay that you're hearing and not one of the other relays first.

assuming it is the starter relay and the switch and NSS are allowing power to the relay, the starter is good, the main cables are clean/tight/good and the engine isn't seized, you would be looking at a faulty relay (yes, they can click and still not flow current), a broken wire to the solenoid (small wire between relay and starter), or a poor ground at the starter case (is the engine block painted and not grounding the starter at it's mount?)

Check the battery with a load tester. might show 12 Volt but under a load it could get weak. If that is good I am with shorty, wires may be good but a ground may be weak.

Need some clarification. Did you replace the whole starter and solenoid or just the starter motor? Do you hear the solenoid engage with a thunk or only hear the click? What year is the vehicle?

Take the starter out and use jumper cables directly on the starter. You need the negative battery cable to be clamped to the body of the starter and the positive battery cable to connect to both of the wire terminals on the starter. If this doesn't work, either the starter or your battery is no good. Next, install the starter in your XJ and hook up the big wire. Then take a screwdriver and jump the current to the small wire terminal on the starter. MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN PARK FIRST! It should crank during both these steps. Let us know what happens so that we can proceed from there.

Start (no pun intended) at the starter relay next to the battery.



The 2 green wires on the individual terms at the bottom of the pic are the targets. One of them is the 12v source from the ignition switch (I forgot which but I think it's the left one). The other is the one that runs down to the small terminal on the starter.

Remove the one on the left and use a voltmeter set for 12v. Turn the key to START and you should see battery voltage (unless I'm wrong and it's the one on the right). The relay should stop clicking since you removed the source. If it you get no voltage and the relay clicks, it's the other wire.

Once you got the wires identified, you want the other green that runs down to the starter. Use a jumper and apply 12v to it. The starter should crank. If not, the wire is broken or disconnected.

Since you say the relay clicks, I would expect you to see 12v at the green supply wire. If you jump the other green and it cranks, your relay's bad.

That wiring spider is only on Renix which is why I asked for year info

I agree it sounds like the solenoid is not getting ignition power although if he hears clunk instead of click then it is getting power

Maybe I can help you understand the system.

The basic parts are the ignition switch which activates starter relay which activates the solenoid. The Solenoid has two functions, it has a fork which throws the starter drive gear tpwards the flex plate (or flywheel) teeth and (the other end of the solenoid) at the same time brings a set of electrical (high amp) contacts together for the starter motor itself.
What can go wrong, power from the ignition switch to the relay, the relay ground which goes through the NSS. The wire from the starter relay to the solenoid (or the end connectors) (I've replaced a few). The ground for the solenoid which is through the motor (time to clean the ground connection on the block). The ground connection is a stud, it's possible it is loose or oil has seeped in a nd covered the threads, oil doesn't conduct well. You may also want to clean the oil and any paint off the the starter mounting area.
Find a good ground on the starter and use a jumper cable directly to the battery negative, if the starter works you likely have a ground fault someplace.
You get this far and I'll post up some more.

ehall said:

That wiring spider is only on Renix which is why I asked for year infor

Click to expand...

He said it's a 90 2dr Laredo

Saudade said:

Start (no pun intended) at the starter relay next to the battery.

The 2 green wires on the individual terms at the bottom of the pic are the targets. One of them is the 12v source from the ignition switch (I forgot which but I think it's the left one). The other is the one that runs down to the small terminal on the starter.

Remove the one on the left and use a voltmeter set for 12v. Turn the key to START and you should see battery voltage (unless I'm wrong and it's the one on the right). The relay should stop clicking since you removed the source. If it you get no voltage and the relay clicks, it's the other wire.

Once you got the wires identified, you want the other green that runs down to the starter. Use a jumper and apply 12v to it. The starter should crank. If not, the wire is broken or disconnected.

Since you say the relay clicks, I would expect you to see 12v at the green supply wire. If you jump the other green and it cranks, your relay's bad.

Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch! I'll give this a shot tonight and hopefully I can bring back some innfo that will help. I replaced that entire relay as well and will give the jumping conditions a shot.

Thanks

Nik

ehall said:

Need some clarification. Did you replace the whole starter and solenoid or just the starter motor? Do you hear the solenoid engage with a thunk or only hear the click? What year is the vehicle?

Click to expand...

I replaced the entire solenoid and starter..... as well as the relay box up top.....

Shorty said:

If you're sure it's the starter relay is clicking, you can rule out the steering column and the NSS as possible culprits as it will only receive a signal to do anything if they are functioning. I would, however, make sure it is the starter relay that you're hearing and not one of the other relays first.

assuming it is the starter relay and the switch and NSS are allowing power to the relay, the starter is good, the main cables are clean/tight/good and the engine isn't seized, you would be looking at a faulty relay (yes, they can click and still not flow current), a broken wire to the solenoid (small wire between relay and starter), or a poor ground at the starter case (is the engine block painted and not grounding the starter at it's mount?)

Click to expand...

I'm starting to think the small wire(mine is green) is the culprit...and no the motor isn't seized :twak:

8Mud said:

Maybe I can help you understand the system.

The basic parts are the ignition switch which activates starter relay which activates the solenoid. The Solenoid has two functions, it has a fork which throws the starter drive gear tpwards the flex plate (or flywheel) teeth and (the other end of the solenoid) at the same time brings a set of electrical (high amp) contacts together for the starter motor itself.
What can go wrong, power from the ignition switch to the relay, the relay ground which goes through the NSS. The wire from the starter relay to the solenoid (or the end connectors) (I've replaced a few). The ground for the solenoid which is through the motor (time to clean the ground connection on the block). The ground connection is a stud, it's possible it is loose or oil has seeped in a nd covered the threads, oil doesn't conduct well. You may also want to clean the oil and any paint off the the starter mounting area.
Find a good ground on the starter and use a jumper cable directly to the battery negative, if the starter works you likely have a ground fault someplace.
You get this far and I'll post up some more.

Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch I will do this as well.....

OK, sounds simple.

You have two red top Optimas and have had BOTH load tested, and they pass, right?

You say the cables are fine. That obviously means you tested them with an ohm meter, right? What was the resistance of the positive cable? of the negative cable?

There are three male spade connections on the starter relay. SOL (solenoid), IGN (ignition) and GRND (ground). You have tested for 12v at the IGN and 12v at the SOL spades. Did you check the GRND that runs to the fenderwell?

Have you tried jumping the solenoid terminal at the starter with the 12v main supply? If you have good power through your cables and you jump it at the starter it will either crank or not. If it won't crank then your starter/solenoid is bad, as long as you have a correct 12v supply at the main and the battery itself has a good ground to the engine.

Nik said:

I'm starting to think the small wire(mine is green) is the culprit...and no the motor isn't seized :twak:

Click to expand...

I'll still stand with the "assuming" part of that statement. A seized engine was never ruled out and for the other points to be valid, that assumption must be made. Although highly unlikely, it was still a possibility.eace:

I tend to think a quick jumper wire (or screwdriver) across both starter terminals would be my next approach.

Shorty said:

I'll still stand with the "assuming" part of that statement. A seized engine was never ruled out and for the other points to be valid, that assumption must be made. Although highly unlikely, it was still a possibility.eace:

I tend to think a quick jumper wire (or screwdriver) across both starter terminals would be my next approach.

Click to expand...

I rebuilt the motor.... it cranks fine with a wrench on the crank, even when pulled the starter won't crank... I actually did put a screwdriver across the terminals on the solenoid and nothing, I just got home from work so I'm heading over there to start troubleshooting again...... and try all of these suggestions....

thanks

I'm going to guess that the grounds are bad. Also have you checked voltage coming from the ignition wire to the center pin on the solenoid? It needs to be +10 volts (max is battery voltage, but usually less since alternator will not be charging). Check current against multiple places including the normal ground point.

well I'm finally done... green wire hidden by the plastic sheathing was stretched and berely connected... replaced it and she fired... then spent another hour getting her tuned out as well as I could simply by the distributor position..... took it for a test drive and pulled fairly strong without misfire. I was wondering for you folks who do you own timing have any clues if there is any way to fine tune on this motor.... I have never tuned anything after an 80's make motor... or anything with a strictly electronic ignition....

I've replaced that wire on two different XJ's an 88 and a 96. The wire is anemic anyway, especially on the later models. I never have understood the logic of putting the current through a relay and then pushing it through a high gage wire. That wire in my 96 is likely 16 gage, way too thin for the amount of amperage a solenoid uses IMO. On the 88 it is thicker but has a tendency to rub through by the distributor. If you try to drop the starter first without disconnecting the solenoid wire you can stretch it. I've rerouted that wire on both of my XJ's to give me a little extra wire, so I can drop the starter down a little farther than stock, to unscrew the connections.