4.6L Stroker, Help me build it please!

[XJoshua]

Well for a year Ive wanted to do this, but never had enough income and now I do. So Ive decided 4.6L is the way to go. Ive spend countless hours studying Dino's page, and other links. Now Ive finally come up with something, and I just need some suggestions and someone to double check what Ive come up with.

Now for the math, and towards the bottom Ill put all the nifty gadgets and plans.

Bore: 3.905
Stroker: 3.895
Deck Height: 9.418
Head Gasket: 0.045
Combustion Chamber Volume: 56.4
Piston Dish Volume: 22.0
Rod Length: 5.875
Piston Pin Height: 1.585
-----------------------
Compression Ratio: 9.56:1
Quench: 0.0555 +0.018over
Deck Clearance: 0.0105
Rotating Length: 9.408
Rod/Stroke Length: 1.508
Rod Angle @ 90*: 18.647
Rod Centerline to Piston Top: 7.460
Cylinder Displacement: 279.9ci
CALCULATIONS PROVIDED BY: AndreasStrokerCalc

Now the CR is very close to what I want being 9.5:1 so I should still be able to run premium fuel without any additives, since this is a daily driver. I will be using Ford 24# injectors with adjustable MAP and FPR. Quench height is TDC to head right? The calculator I used showed in the green so that means I wont get valve lash right? I dont unsderstand what combustion chamber volume is so if someone can clear that up for me that would be great.

As far as parts go:
1988 4.0L Long Block
1991 4.0L HO Head
2001 Intake Manifold
Ford 65MM Throttle Body
4.2L Rods
4.2L Crank(12 Counterweight)
3.905 Federal Mongul Cast Pistons
260/272 Crane Camshaft
DIY Gasket Match Port/Polish
Bore & Hone (Kind of a Duhh)
Valves Laped(Is that the correct term?)
Mopar Performance Valve Springs
Harland Sharp Rocker Arm 1.6

I think thats most of it, probally missed something, just jump in and tell me. Thanks much.

-Joshua

[Dr. Dyno]

Harland Sharp roller rockers will only fit under the valve cover if you cut the valve cover CCV baffles and shorten the rocker bolt bosses by 0.4". Coupled to the fact that they're stud mounted and will need pushrod guideplates and chrome moly hardened pushrods to keep the valvetrain stable, they aren't the best choice.
Go for the Yella Terra 6627A 1.6 ratio roller rockers. They're shaft-mounted and fit under the stock valve cover. I've ordered a set for my stroker directly from Yella Terra in Australia at a cost of $364 plus $59 shipping.

[j99xj]

Harland Sharp roller rockers will only fit under the valve cover if you cut the valve cover CCV baffles and shorten the rocker bolt bosses by 0.4". Coupled to the fact that they're stud mounted and will need pushrod guideplates and chrome moly hardened pushrods to keep the valvetrain stable, they aren't the best choice.
Go for the Yella Terra 6627A 1.6 ratio roller rockers. They're shaft-mounted and fit under the stock valve cover. I've ordered a set for my stroker directly from Yella Terra in Australia at a cost of $364 plus $59 shipping.

Only 1.6 ratio? I thought you wanted higher lift from 1.7s.

[XJoshua]

What about the Hesco Hardened Rockers? Im thinking this would be a cheaper more pratical part. Would these accomodate the larger lift, or am I going to have to much lift for the stroker to run properly on 93octane?

[jeepinwi]

I've been playing around with the same Excel spreadsheet doing calculations for my stroker. The combustion chamber volume is the area below the valves down to the bottom of the head. If you turned your head upside down, you could fit 56.4 cc's of water in each of your 6 combustion chambers. The stock head has a volume of 57 cc's. Are you planning on shaving .004" from the head to get that 56.4 cc's? You are correct on what quench is.

[Menzenski]

The combustion chamber volume is the area below the valves down to the bottom of the head
It includes the volume created by the thickness of the head gasket as well.

[1985xjlaredo]

What Excel Spreadsheet Are you guys talking about?

[XJoshua]

AndreasStrokerCalc

Search it, I found it on this forum, but have lost the link. Its really small and useful.

I just went with the 56.4 because thats what it had in first stroker idea colum. Maybe adding that back will give me the 9.5:1 on the dot I need.

How do I figure when my pistons will slap the valve when opened? Kinda something I dont want to happen.

[XJoshua]

Weird I cant find the edit button. Well I put in the 57cc combustion chamber volume and that gave me 9.50:1 compression on the dot. But the calculator says 58cc is stock, and comments on this?

[Beej]

After an hour or so, the Edit button disappears...

[XJoshua]

Is there much difference between a 4.6 and a 4.7? Other then that .1 of a litre. I dont think it would cost anymore, but is there even a butt dyno notice? The only gain I see is it would look like a cooler badge on the hatch.

[Menzenski]

But the calculator says 58cc is stock, and comments on this?
I don't have it near me at the moment, but I was looking at the engine chapter of my FSM yesterday and I'm fairly sure that it said that stock combustion chamber volume for a 4.0 (a 1990 RENIX) is about 64cc.

[Dr. Dyno]

That figure of 64cc is for the 4.2 head. The 4.0 Renix head comes in at ~58cc while the HO head comes in at ~57cc. I've cc'd two 7120 heads and they came in at 56.5 and 57.0cc respectively.
Mambeu, the combustion chamber volume does NOT include the head gasket volume.
j99xj, I was advised not to go for the 1.7 ratio roller rockers 'cause I'm already getting 0.456"/0.484" lift from the Crane 753905 cam with 1.6 ratio rockers. The extra lift (0.484"/0.514" with 1.7 RR's) would have raised the open valve spring pressures to a degree that would accelerate cam lobe wear especially on the exhaust lobes.

[XJoshua]

Well since I have a HO going onto the Renix block sounds like my calculations are done. Just time to get the engine down here, and start buying parts, and hope for the best in febuarury when I get it in.

[XJoshua]

Engine arrives next saturday(the fourth). Ordering the camshaft tonight. Question is Im getting a 260/272 and the stock camshaft is what? Im trying to see if my valves are going to get slapped by the pistons with my quench being 0.0555(+0.018).

Also whats a good kind of bolt to use for securing the block to the engine stand(length, and type, also the type of nut to use)?

[jeepinwi]

It looks like your stroker will be nearly identical to mine. The stock camshaft is a straight 270 degree for the 91-95 4.0, and a split 256/260 degree for the 96-02 4.0. I've turned my engine over by hand, and I did not have any clearance problems in the valvetrain. You're looking at your chart wrong for the quench...you will actualy have .018" MORE quench than a 4.0, meaning you'll actuay have .0905" of quench, more than enough. Your chart must look like column '"E" below:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jeepinwi/strokerchart.jpg

I don't remember what kind of bolts I used on the engine stand. I found some that threaded into the top and used some that would fit through on the bottom and secured with a nut.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jeepinwi/stroker017.jpg

[XJoshua]

Here's what Ive come up with using the calculator.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/Jeep4.jpg

Im trying to figure out the bolt size to mount the engine because when the engine arrives the only cherry picker will be the one on his truck so I have to get it mounted right then and there until Im ready to put it in. Im hoping I can just go out there and screw some nuts on to the current engine and one will slip over and then go bolt match it at the hardware store.

For the camshaft on the '88 Block I show 253/253. So would the 260/272 let the stroker breath? Cant remeber what ti said on Dinos page, but he has a couple setups and all differ when mines the cheapo setup with the higher end stuff in it.

Also to clear things up Im using a '88 Renix Block and a '91 HO Head.

[Pharaoh XJ]

what about the comp cams rollers
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=1044-16&Category_Code=alRCKR
they say that it works for AMC ?

[Dr. Dyno]

AMC V8 roller rockers are not wide enough to work on the Jeep I6. Indeed, none of the V8 roller rockers will work.
I just received my Yella Terra 1.6 roller rockers (YT6627) and my Crower chromemoly hardened pushrods (70158-12) yesterday in the post. Total cost was exactly $400. I plan to install them tomorrow and do a write-up, so watch this space. :D

[vetteboy]

So let's say I build one of these with a higher compression, say the 9.75:1 on the end, pull the computer & fuel system, install a 4.2L distributor, advance the hell outta the timing, and run on propane.

Any thoughts on how this would work? There are kits available for the 4.0L intake, and I'm considering this now before I go drop a bunch o money on a regular fuel cell, high-pressure pump, larger injectors, better ignition, premium fuel, etc...

[jeepinwi]

XJoshua-
What's the reason for milling .035" from the block? Why not mill only .020" from the block to keep the quench close to stock? Your CR would drop a little, but you won't lose much power. Your 88 block is identical to any other 4.0 block, regardless of year. You're effectively building an HO since you're using the 7120 head.

For the bolts, If I remember right, it is a standard SAE bolt that attaches at the top of the block. Either a 5/16" or 3/8"...that's just a guess. for the bottom, just take a couple longer bolts that will fit through the holes and attach on the other side with a nut. When I got my complete 4.2L engine for parts, I disassembled it in the back of my YJ because I didn't even have an engine stand at the time!:dunno:

[old_man]

The reason is to get the quench height in the sweet spot. I did .020 IIRC but went with the thin performance head gasket on my 4.7L. By getting the quench right, it allows me to run the cheapest gas I can find with no ping, even with the high CR.

[XJoshua]

This is my very first engine rebuild so Im just using data from various tutorials and adjusting it. Im very happy I came across the calculator otherwise Id be lost and sound 200% more n00b then I do right now.

Heres the new data I entered in. I could do the thing head gasket idea and get the CR to about ~9.40:1. Running a 0.035 head gasket(not included in the newest calculations).
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/Jeep4-1.jpg


JeepinWI-
Isnt the only difference between the HO and nonHO is that my block will be metric and the hoe is SAE? Or is that just with the oil filter?

[vetteboy]

Isnt the only difference between the HO and nonHO is that my block will be metric and the hoe is SAE? Or is that just with the oil filter?

The oil filter thread changed, yes.

Another difference is that the earlier 4.0's had a knock sensor w/the Renix computer that helps avoid pinging issues a little bit by retarding the timing. This is really only a difference if you're using the pre-HO computer though.

[jeepinwi]

JeepinWI-
Isnt the only difference between the HO and nonHO is that my block will be metric and the hoe is SAE? Or is that just with the oil filter?

I wasn't aware of the oil filter being different, but I've never worked with a renix block. I've heard time and time again that all 4.0 blocks are identical dimension-wise. I assumed all the bolt holes would be the same also.

I understand that a tighter quench allows you to run lower octane gas. You can also run the lower fuel by slightly retarding the timing, running the engine cooler, and making sure there are no sharp edges which would induce hot-spots and pinging.

I personally would be VERY happy with your column C in the chart. Had I found the spreadsheet before I installed the pistons into my engine, I probably would have had my dish volumes increased 2 cc's. This would have reduce my CR to 9.32, which would be more tolerant to lower octane fuel.

[XJoshua]

So then with how my column C is right now can I still expect to have a kick in the pants when accelerating and still have the power to pull a tree out of the ground? What kind of fuel can I run will I be able to stick to the 87-Octane I currently run or will I still need the 92-Octane I was planning to run with the CR of 9.50:1?

[jeepinwi]

I don't think a .27 difference in CR will make too much difference in the amount of power your stroker makes. I think the longer stroke, camshaft, and better breathing engine is what really give you the acceleration and low end torque.

I wish I could help you on what gas to use, but I'm also wondering the same thing. I'll be running premium 91-92 octane in my engine until I have it broken in. I may then try some mid grade 89 octane to see if the engine will run with out pinging.

[XJoshua]

Anyone know the Dish Volume of the Federal Mogul Cast Pistons STL-677CP30 on SummitRacing. I sent a tech request to them and all I got back is a "I dont know, maybe same as stock" So stock is 13cc, but does anyone know for sure what the dish volume is?

[Israel]

My guess is that it's a Sealed Power 677CP with a 15.1cc dish volume and 1.585" pin height.

[jeepinwi]

My guess is that it's a Sealed Power 677CP with a 15.1cc dish volume and 1.585" pin height.

I'd guess the same thing.

[XJoshua]

Well the guy who I was getting the crank, rods and '88 Renix from finally pulled the pan two days before he's suppose to bring it down to me. Well the 4.2L engine only has a four counterweight crank. I know the rods will still be of great use to me, but what are the downsides to only having a four counterweight crank? Thanks a million, these quick responses are awesome keep them comming.

[XJoshua]

Also if I do get the 4 counterweight will the vibes be so bad that itll keep me from going 75MPH on the interstate This is a major issue since I go this speed to get places and to go work on the jeep at shops in other towns.

[Dr. Dyno]

Also if I do get the 4 counterweight will the vibes be so bad that itll keep me from going 75MPH on the interstate?

No. The 4 counterweight crank will do fine. There are many strokers out there running quite happily with it.

[jeepinwi]

The 4 counterweight crank will allow the engien to rev up a little quicker, but may not have as good of low end torque. It would be a good idea, regardless of which crank, to have the rotating assembly balanced. I did not have mine balanced, but now I wish I had.

[sjkimmel99]

Running a 0.035 head gasket(not included in the newest calculations).

XJoshua, Can you give the brand and part number of the .035 head gasket and maybe where it's available? I've only heard of the stock .051 and the Victor 5713 at .043.

Thanks.

[XJoshua]

sjkimmel99-
Im just assumming it would have to be a custom made one. I had a Metal Headgasket made for my old 5M-GE motor and it ran me about $200 including shipping. It was a 0.040. So Since the 2.8L is a little smaller then 4.0L Im assumming a custom would cost maybe $300ish.

DrDyno-
Thank you much on the quick response. I guess Im getting a four counterweight and Ill have it balacned aswell.

[sjkimmel99]

Also whats a good kind of bolt to use for securing the block to the engine stand(length, and type, also the type of nut to use)?

did you ever get a response to this question? Here's what I used, grade 5 from Lowes:

top bolts 3/8-16 x 3"
middle block bolts: 7/16-14 x 4"
pack of 7/16" washers. I ended up with 4 washers under the head of each of the two larger bolts - I could see the bolt coming through the hole on the other side and didn't want it to go into that area cause it didn't look like the threads had been cut all the way through. Now that I think about it a washer under the top bolts probably wouldn't hurt, I don't think I checked carefully enough to make sure they are not bottoming out in the holes.
Keep in mind the bolts go through about 2 1/2" of engine stand tube before they engage the block so you may want to measure your stand before getting the bolts.

No nuts needed - the holes in the top of the block are blind and in the bottom even though the hole goes through as long as the bolt is about through the hole and the head of the bolt is bearing on the washers it will be fastened.

[XJoshua]

I stopped by the stealership today and the tranny guy said to just pull a bolt from the bell housing take it to napa and ask for larger ones thatll match with the engine stand studs. So Im going to do that tomorrow maybe, should have done that today since I dont have work, but didnt.

So then the middle and top bolts are difference. Well Im going to take your word on those being the exact sizes and just cross my fingers. Thanks

[XJoshua]

And the glory shots.

1991-1995 Crate Engine. We arent sure on the acutal year but know its a H.O. by looking up the casting number. This is great news because I was told it was a RENIX since he pulled it from a '88, but the previous owner must have done a swap.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-4002.jpg

4.2L Crank. I got some mass on my arms today, got bored and started pressing and curling it :D
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-4007.jpg

4.2L Rods and Pistons. While I have no use for the pistons I got them anyways.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-4005.jpg


Now the kid I bought it from said the 4.0L crank was knocking. I checked the bearing clearance and it was within specs. The bearing themselves look like over sizes, and the crank looked in perfect condition. So he might have meant it used to knock until someone rebuilt it, not to well in my opinon the oil was about 30% RTV and 70% Syntetics and the oil pan gasket was bearly making contact with the pan or the block. Now my idea is if it does really still knock its the rod bearings, but thats okay since i have a new crank and rods to replace it.

The bolts I used were:
Top block bolts: 3/8-16 x 3"
Middle block bolts: 7/16-14 x 4"
I also used four heat treated washer per every bolt and grade 5 wasnt enough I broke one torquing it down so went back and got a exchange for some grade 8s which torqued down fine. The four washers on everything help alot on the top bolts. Also the middle block taps are threaded all the way through for anyone interested in knowing.

Well I hope to have the engine completed by March 2007. Ill post updates in this thread since there is no point in starting another thread.

-Joshua

[XJoshua]

Well today I made a plan to get the block completly torn apart. I did pretty good, but didnt get around to getting the camshaft pulled, or the valvetrain completely disassembled. So far this whole thing has been a big learning experience, and something I believe any n00b with tools can do as far as disassembling. Also Ive been bagging everything according to what they do (ex. lubrication, cam, valve cover, head) and I hope this will help me reassemble it perfectly. Well here's some photos everyone loves photos.

4.0 Pistons & Rods, 4.0 Crank, 4.0 Head Assembled, 4.0 Oil Pan
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-5001.jpg

4.2 Crank, 4.2 Pistons & Rods, 4.0 Valve Cover, 4.0 Bolts and Crap
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-5002.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-5003.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-5004.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-5006.jpg

[XJoshua]

Since strokers seem to be the in thing to do, and people have been asking questions I think its time for a update, and for me to ask a few more questions.

So from where we left off I still had the cam, lifters, head assembled, and freeze plugs installed. I will admit its taken me a long time to get things moving due to it being freezing cold oldside and been working alot more at work then I used to.
Where am I now? I have every thing removed! Nothing but metal exists, except the front seal on the timming chain cover, but Im going to torch it out since tools are moving it. Im acid dipping all my parts with this mirical purple stuff which gets thing pretty clean and degreased. Still have several bags of stuff to clean, and tuesday Ill be calling around for quotes on machine work.

Picture Time:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-8007.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/11-8002.jpg

Now as for some questions for the experienced stroker builders. What is the best chemical to remove oil stains from a asphault garage, and does this sound like everything I need done and did I miss anything? Also the port and polish Ill be doing myself...
Valve Cover-
Acid Dip

Head-
Hot Tank
Check Deck

Block-
Hot Tank
Shave Deck(9.433 - 0.020")
Bore(3.905 - 0.030") & Hone
Install Freeze Plugs
Install Cam Bearings

Rods & Pistons-
Balance Rods
Weight Match Rods
Increase Piston Dish Volume(13cc TO 22cc)
Weight Match Pistons
Press Pistons To Rods

Crankshaft-
Check Clearance
Balance

Oil Pan-
Acid Dip

EDIT: On the 4.0Performance site it mentions he reused his head bolts. Im pretty sure reusing head bolts is like reusing a condom, its a No No! Am I right, or do we 4.0L people have strong head bolts?

[Dr. Dyno]

EDIT: On the 4.0Performance site it mentions he reused his head bolts. Im pretty sure reusing head bolts is like reusing a condom, its a No No! Am I right, or do we 4.0L people have strong head bolts?

The head bolts are torque-to-yield so they stretch when you torque them down. Therefore they can be reused only once. If the head has to come off for a second time, you need new head bolts.

[jeepinwi]

I believe the 4.0 has some good head bolts. I pulled the head off my 93 YJ severa times and reused the head bolts everytime. They were probably retorqued 4-5 times. I don't see any problem with reusing the original head bolts. I did on my stroker, and it has been rock solid for almost 2k miles.

[jeepinwi]

Also, have you thought about getting a valve job done on your ported head? Your new piston rings deserve to have some tight sealing valves. Also, get some new valve stem seals.

I got a valve job, head flatness checked and milled to flatness, head steam cleaned, new valve seals, and valvetrain reassembled for about $150. Well worth it in my mind.

[XJoshua]

Im poundering wether to get oversized valves, or just getting new stainless steel valves. I have thought about getting the valves lapped, but thats something I can do. New valve stem seals are on the list, I just pulled the old ones today.

I thought about getting a 3angle valve job, but someone told me expect to pay up to $800, which I dont know if its true yet, because I havent gotten quotes yet.

[jeepinwi]

I don't see any way possible to spend $800 on a valve job unless it is done with gold plated machinery. The things I had done for $150 included a 3 angle valve job. Shop around. I took my head to an auto parts store that has a machine shop in house. They did a very fine job. I had my engine block work done at a different machine shop and they also did a very fine job. I basically called around and picked the shops with the cheapest prices.

[XJoshua]

Thanks alot JeepinWI, bould you post everything you had done to the head and the overall price. I understand prices will differ on region, but its always nice to have some ideas.

I was never planning on making a premo stroker, but it seems it might turn out that way for a couple hundred more.

[jeepinwi]

For $150, I got the 3 angle valve job, head flatness checked and milled to flatness, head hot tanked, new valve seals, and everything reassembled(valves, springs, seals).

For the block, I had the following done at the machine shop:
-hone big and small ends of rods: $75(I did not expect to have this done, but it was suggested)
-jet hot cleaning: $40
-bore cylinders: $99
-install cam bearings: $28
-install freeze plugs: $10
-environmental waste charge: $13.25(I'm not sure what waste there really was...oh well)

I ported the cylinder myself, so that was probably about $15 in grinding stones/sanding drums.

I also planned on making a low budget stroker, but I opted to spend a little more money to get an engine with all new parts. I've learned from experience that it's worth it to spend a few extra bucks the first time around so things tend to last longer, run better.

[XJoshua]

Called on quotes today, only got around to a few shops. One guy was extremely nice and understood where I was comming from and had the best price. Whereas the other guy sounds like "we need to buy all this extra stuff to ensure the best performance and balance of your engine, so we need a few hundred more" I understand but wasnt a real person I would be willing to send my engine to. So right now the nice guy quotes at about $740-800, and the professional know it all wants $900-1000. Then I called NAPA and they only do headwork which would run me $170 for everything minus port and polish.

[Frank Z]

I'm waiting on Robbie to finish my motor an then I'll be able to give a good breakdown of the costs involved with my build. I spoke with him today and he was in the process of milling the dish on the new pistons. It's taken a bit longer than he or I expected but if you want it done right...well you know the rest.

Once you step into the shop and see the kind of work he does you'll understand why I chose his shop. The guy has skillz!!

[XJoshua]

Could you give me his number and all? I asked one shop because they seemed to know alot about stroker, but it wasnt him.

[Frank Z]

www.McCabeMotorSports.com (http://www.McCabeMotorSports.com)

(719)591-8415

[XJoshua]

Seems most machine shops dont like the costomer buying the internal parts. Either because they really want to ensure quality, or want part of the cut. Im looking into parts, and am woundering if it would just be easier to purchase a Overhaul Kit from Jeep Connection, or buy everything individually from Summit and Hesco.

Also the came Im looking at running is the 260/272(204/216 @ 050in) and the machine shops say thats way to much cam, yet everyone and their mother with a stroker is running it and says it gives a stock feel and idle. Also one guy who says he's built several strokers and has had multiple problems with the Mopar Perfromance Valve Springs, yet again quite a few people are running it.

Im woundering what specific specs on valve springs, rockers, and cam can someone provide me with.

Any other helpful hints, the write ups on stroking a 4.0 all seem to not mean anything anymore after people keep telling me new stuff. Also being my first time I dont know what and how is correct or incorrect.

[Frank Z]

Here's what I've learned in the process of buying parts and having stuff machined.

#1) Just because someone puts some info on their own personal website about spec's...that don't make it Gospel!

Do lot's of research using a variety of sources, including manufacturers websites.

#2) Just because you see a website that lists a specific dish volume for a piston...that don't make it Gospel!

My machinest cc'd 3 different pistons that all listed the dish as 22cc. Not a single one was.

#3) Not all pistons are ideal for milling to increase the dish volume.

The total thickness of the top of the piston should be verified prior to milling. Too thin and you'll blow the top out of it.

#4) Anything with the name MOPAR on it is going to cost alot more than a part from the aftermarket.

Many of the "MOPAR" parts are actually built by the same companies that build and sell parts under a variety of names. RESEARCH AND SHOP AROUND!!

#5) If you want a quality motor thats reliable, start with quality parts and quality machining.

High expectations + low cost parts/workmenship = A pissed off stroker owner.

#6) Machine shops are in business to make money.

No two ways about it. Every shop that I called had the same policy. One price for work if you bought your parts from them, another (higher) price if you supplied the parts. Part of their profit comes from the parts they sell, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit. Why wold they be in business if they weren't making a profit. again, do your home work, compare price and benefit. A low price does not mean the best value. A high price does not guarranty quality.

In the end, it's the buyer's responsiblity to ensure the quality of the parts, and the quality of the shop chosen. It's YOUR money, you're responsible for spending it wisely.

Camshafts, yep they can be confusing. The Crane Cam you are refering to is the one I'm using. I'm sticking the stock rockers in for now and might swap them out at some point. I'm already over budget as it is.

I had my cylinder head machined to accept Chevy valve springs. The Crane springs were not acorn springs like the stock springs and the proper retainers and locks have been discontinued by Crane.

Geez I'm long winded.:geek:

[philip_g]

So what you're saying isn't I shouldn't take my used con rods and just slap 'em in without some machine work?
I was actually kinda hoping to....

[Frank Z]

Philip,
All I'm saying is that you're the guy laying the money on the counter. You have to decide what risks are woth taking, and which should be avoided.

Does it make sense (too you and you alone) to put parts inside your motor that may compromise the strength of the motor.

I'd have them resized and new ARP rod bolts installed.

[Clean Racing]

I don't see any way possible to spend $800 on a valve job unless it is done with gold plated machinery. The things I had done for $150 included a 3 angle valve job. Shop around. I took my head to an auto parts store that has a machine shop in house. They did a very fine job. I had my engine block work done at a different machine shop and they also did a very fine job. I basically called around and picked the shops with the cheapest prices.

Well I know the head for my stroker is going to run around 750 for everything but I know it will be DONE RIGHT... For your 150, they are not replacing the exhaust valve seats, or new guides - just drilling and installing guide liners..

For what I am having done is upgrading to the Chevy valves - stainless, get a bigger valve guide that way.. New exhaust seats - so I know my exhaust valves wont be leaking any air. Minimal surface on the deck of the head, and one small crack repair.. Along with a 5 angle valve job, new springs, retainers, locks, and seals... Its not about doing it for the least amount of money... Its called
doing it right the first time...

For what its worth just find someone that KNOWS what they are doing and pay the extra dough to get it right once... Now if I can just get a good crank that is not cracked Ill be in business....

[philip_g]

Philip,
All I'm saying is that you're the guy laying the money on the counter. You have to decide what risks are woth taking, and which should be avoided.

Does it make sense (too you and you alone) to put parts inside your motor that may compromise the strength of the motor.

I'd have them resized and new ARP rod bolts installed.

this budget build is quickly becomming a non budget build.

Well I need to get the pistons pressed on anyway so I'll get my machinist to do it anyway. He's had my block for a month now.

[Frank Z]

this budget build is quickly becomming a non budget build.
Buddy, I know the feeling!:laugh:

[philip_g]

Buddy, I know the feeling!:laugh:
the irritating this is I lose interest in shit so fast that I'll probably sell the jeep by june anyway.

I'm already mostly over the engine to the point I don't want to pull the old one and do the swap myself.

[XJoshua]

So basically keep doing what Ive been doing. I couldnt get ahold of Robbie today he said he left town in a email I sent him, so I didnt bother calling.

I have confidence in my stroker being build correctly and I do understand machinists are out to make a profit. I need to get together with someone to sit down with and go over. This over the phone shit isnt worth my time because all I hear is a voice and I dont know really what they are like. I am sending something in thats worth alot of money to have alot of money put into, so its like sending a pet to the vet, I need to know the person on a personal level. January will probally be the best time for me to do this, when there are no more big parties at work, and everything is calm. Also gives me more time to save. Right now I got $400 in saving for this baby, and need a good $600 or more, its going to be a bitch to get this done by March...

Frank when you get the ening eback and start building, think I could come over aqnd watch from the side lines, wouldnt hurt to get some more understanding of the engine.

[Frank Z]

I don't mind. I've got everything except the lifters and I'm trying to resolve a main bearing issue right now. I'll let ya know when the fun starts.

FYI,
Robbie mentioned that he got your email. He'll be back in town on Monday.

[XJoshua]

Whats the grand total you spent on everything, and everything you had done. Im looking forward to meeting him and maybe doing bussiness with him as you have praised him so well for the work.

[Frank Z]

Milled the block.
Decked the head
Milled head for Chevy valve springs
CC'd the head
Bored .030
3 angle valve job
grind and polish the crank
balanced the crank, dampener, flex plate
installed new brass freeze plugs
installed new cam bearings
CC'd and milled pistons
pressed pistons and rods
Boiled the block
Boiled the head
Ground the valve faces
Installed valves, springs and retainers


New Parts:
Full gasket set
Crane Cam
Crane lifters
Silvolite coated skirt pistons
rod bearings
main bearings
Melling high volume oil pump
Cloyes True Dual roller timing chain set

There's a few more things, but it's late, I'm tired...... and I'm going to bed!

[jeepinwi]

Here's the breakdown of my stroker cost: Add about $100 for new head gasket, oil, and filters.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jeepinwi/strokercost.jpg

[jeepinwi]

Here's an updated and more accurate breakdown of my stroker:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jeepinwi/strokercost-1.jpg

[philip_g]

hell of a deal on that rebuild kit. Wish I could find one for 100 bucks.

[Israel]

hell of a deal on that rebuild kit. Wish I could find one for 100 bucks.

I wish I could find a crank and rods for $5.50!

[XJoshua]

I think I saw a carquest for Springs or Denver. Im looking for just the work I need done on the engine machine work wise done. Id like to do everything myself just so I can have the knowledge and bragging rights to all the high school kiddies(sadly Im still one for a semster...).

On a side note, I think Im falling in love with the 4Door Wranglers. Got to take a ride in one, and sit in it, and touch it, and lick it, well not lick. Good thing I drove my mums ZJ there otherwise my XJ might have gotten jealous... Im done, just wanted to say that I might get a TK for my college graduation in 4-5years... And back on topic NOW!

Ill make more calls this weekend, and I have more pressing matters to attend to like my rear brakes... Just Emptied Every Pocket :D

[XJoshua]

And look at what the head got in the mail today. Chevy 350 .550" Lift Valve Springs, Retainers, and Locks for a welittle $52.00 w/Shipping.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/12-29008.jpg
The Chevy 350 SS Valves are in the mail and are taking longer being they are further which is a bummer. So far Ive only spent $350.89 on parts to get the base parts of the stroker and the head complete - the machine work. So far Im right on budget and might pull this off as a Medium Buck, Low Budget Stroker Project!

[philip_g]

I didn't know you could use 350SB valves, springs, and retainers, cool!

[old_man]

My Crane cam called for their #99833 dual springs

Closed 95 lbs @ 1.7"
Open 247 lbs @ 1.24"

That may give you a point of reference when looking at springs. You have to watch for coil bind at high lift.

[Dr. Dyno]

How many miles do you have on your stroker Tom? I know you have the Crane 753901 cam (I thought you once had the smaller 750501) and with all the well-publicized failures of the Crane 753905 (including my own at 34k miles), I'm glad to see yours is still going strong. Which oil are you using?

[old_man]

I pulled the cam numbers from the sheet I found in my tool box last week, so they should be accurate. I probably only have about 25k miles on my stroker. I broke it in on 30w non-detergent. Changed it at 400 miles with the same. I could tell the rings had set at 1000 miles so I switched to Valvoline DuraBlend 10w30. My oil pressure has always been on the low side so I didn't go with 5w30. I run a Frantz toilet paper oil filter. They have been around for decades and I have been using them on vehicles for 40 years. My only complaint is that it is hard to tell the oil line on the dipstick because it is so clean.

I went with the Crane lifters and valve springs. I found them cheap on ebay.

[XJoshua]

The difference between Stock 4.0L HO and SB-350 Springs is the 350s are esitmated tape measure measurment of 1/64" taller, which seems rather minute. The valve seats will require machine work, being the 350 springs inner diameter is smaller then the ID of the 4.0L springs.

The 350 Springs Specs:
Seat Pressure - 110lbs @ 1.750"
Open Pressure - 325lbs @ 1.200"
Coil Bind - 1.150"
Nominal Lift - .490"
Max Lift - .550"

[mecompco]

I pulled the cam numbers from the sheet I found in my tool box last week, so they should be accurate. I probably only have about 25k miles on my stroker. I broke it in on 30w non-detergent. Changed it at 400 miles with the same. I could tell the rings had set at 1000 miles so I switched to Valvoline DuraBlend 10w30. My oil pressure has always been on the low side so I didn't go with 5w30. I run a Frantz toilet paper oil filter. They have been around for decades and I have been using them on vehicles for 40 years. My only complaint is that it is hard to tell the oil line on the dipstick because it is so clean.

I went with the Crane lifters and valve springs. I found them cheap on ebay.

To what do you attribute the lower-than-desired oil pressure?

[old_man]

It runs around 17 @ idle and 45-50 @ cruise. Not out of spec but I would have liked to see it higher. Every thing measured out when replacing the bearings, so my thought is loose lifter bores. I'm not worried. Just think of it as moving more oil past the bearing surfaces.

[mecompco]

It runs around 17 @ idle and 45-50 @ cruise. Not out of spec but I would have liked to see it higher. Every thing measured out when replacing the bearings, so my thought is loose lifter bores. I'm not worried. Just think of it as moving more oil past the bearing surfaces.

Thank you--just wondered if there was some particular aspect of your build that might bare consideration for future engine builders.

[XJoshua]

Well I finally meet the amount of money I needed in order to get everything machined I hope... I have $800 for the engine right now I can make a quick $200 in a week if I need to. So now Im finally about to move into the 50% completed mark. party1:

So some finaly questions and checks, and double checks before I forward all this to the machine shops who will have to fight for my business. Granted its not a large fight, but Id still like to find out who can get me the best deal and service.

Questions are in BOLD to make sure they arent overseen. Also add any other detail or ideas I might have forgotten or you feel should be noted.

So first off some new pictures. Not many, just picture of the head incomplete and the springs, and shinny new valves.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-01-08007.jpg
^^^Chevy 350 SS Valves 1.60/2.02", and Chevy 350 Valve Springs, Retainers, Locks.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-01-08008.jpg
^^^ Retainer installed on the Valve. This doesnt look to good, can it be machined or filed down to where the rocker will slide across the surface without catching?

These specs arent what I expect the engine to come near, but close. I have yet to measure anything as I would like the machine shop to do any measuring and purchase the pistons and rings for me to make sure they are correct and give me a CR of 9.20-9.40. Since I understand the Summit Racing piston selecton are 13cc instead of the 22cc I need.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/4-6LPreFinalSpecs.jpg
^^^Everything look like a good place to start at?

This is what I am going to ask the machine shop to do, and of course make their own little suggestions. While I doubt they will have many suggestions other then purchasing everything through them. Does this look like Im on track and didnt forget anything? Should I spend a few more bills and get the rods shot peened? I do plan on revving the crap out of this a few times once broken in, but I think they will hold up after grinding away the seams as showed in the S.A. Block Prep Tutorial.

Valve Cover:
Acid Dip
Head:
Hot Tank
Magnaflux
Mill to Flatness
Reem Valve Stems
Mill Valve Spring Seats
Enlarge Valve Seat
3-Angle Valve Grind
Block:
Hot Tank
Magnaflux
Shave Deck(TO 9.440/0.013")
Bore(TO 3.905/0.030") & Hone
Install Freeze Plugs
Install Cam Bearings
Rods & Pistons:
Balance Rods
Weight Match Rods
Increase Piston Dish Volume(13cc TO 22cc)
Weight Match Pistons
Press Pistons To Rods
Crankshaft:
Check Clearance
Grind IF NECCESSARY
Balance
Oil Pan:
Acid Dip


Thanks a million and I will continue to post updates as everything come along. Also Ill try and get my site up and running with millions of references and thanks to the entire NAXJA community and specifically Dr. Dyno, and 5-90 for their wisedom and over-educationalism(not a real word, but you get it).

[Frank Z]

Don't forget to take your flex-plate and Harmonic balancer into the shop so they can balance the crank properly.

You can save a few bucks by cleaning the valve cover and oil pan yourself.

Have the head CC'd.

I don't think shotpeening the rods is really necessary for the type of motor you are building. If you were building a full-on race motor that will see very high rpm's...sure.

New ARP rod bolts.

According to the FSM, head bolts can be re-used 1 time. Do you need new ones?

Melling high volume oil pump?

Timing chain set? (Cloyes Tru-roller is the way to go.)

Got your cam picked out yet?

Lifters?

Don't forget to check your lifter preload. You may need new push rods or rocker bridge shims.

Gasket set? You might not want to buy the full set. When you get your new water pump, thermostat, oil pump, etc they will generally include a new gasket. You may need to purchase just oil pan , valve cover and head, timing chain cover, and distributor gaskets. Call your favorite parts house and do the math before you order a full set.

[XJoshua]

RE: FrankZ
Whats CC the head? I know to many CCs and the newest way I havent heard of yet.

Check yes to everything else. Cam is the ever so popular Crane 260/272.

I have no clue how many times the head bolts have been torqued down. Im going with more then twice seeing the head looks really clean when torn down, and Id rather be safe then Blown Head Gasket

[Frank Z]

Whats CC the head? It means that each dome section of the head is measured to deternine the actuall volume. The volume of each should be identical. Take alook at the MADXJ spread sheet and you'll notice that the volume can be changed to reflect the mesaured volume. This will have a direct effect on your static compression ratio.

CC = Cubic Centimeters

LINKY TIME!!

http://www.maxracesoftware.com/cc'ing__heads.htm

[XJoshua]

Can I get my valve tips filled down in order to make them flush with the retainer? See post #79 for picture.

[Frank Z]

The machine shop should take care of the stem height.

[XJoshua]

Piston decision time... Im stuck between two choices, and one has more cc, and the other has less. So its a matter of knowing which one can easily be cc'd without losing stength.

STL-677CP30 with a dish volume of 17.5 then cc'd to 22.
or
H802CP30 with a dish volume of 15.8 then cc'd to 22.

Im sure I have more question I just cant remember any, but this is the most important right now since it will allow me to get the damn engine into the shop and then start building.

[Frank Z]

Silvolite UEM-2229

Thicker to allow for machining the dish without having to worry about making it too weak.

[XJoshua]

UEM-2229 on Summit is called UEM-2229030 which I believe is the same since all their pistons end with 30. Also they have UEM-2229C030 which Im guessing is Coated and thats the one I should get. Does anyone have the Pin Height measurment of these?

[Frank Z]

got it listed on my final specs.
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=656344&postcount=117

[Flash]

As fare as rods shot peened......you will have to have the large end of the rod re sized any way with the hi strength rod bolts, any way.

you are grinding down the casting seam any way might as well have it Dun also

it seam like a odd possess but it will strengthen the rod where the rod bolts can't!
It's not necessary but i would do it!;)




Flash.

[XJtoy]

Ok noob here I have the 4.2l crank and rods and a 4.0l block and head I was under the impression that I reused the 4.0l pistons with the 4.2l crank and rods in the 4.0l block. Very good info on everything but the pistons.

I need to be taught that are Sealed Power pistons are they after market or factory?
What years and or what is the Renix brand?

The crazy think about this is all the Honda motors that I have put together we never worry about quench and we throw all sorts of head, block, crank, rod, and piston combos together and then make 400+hp and drive the hell out of them on the street and the track. The thing we look at more then any thing would be compression and Rod / stroke ratio but I think that is more of an issue with how high we rev the motors.

[jeepinwi]

The crazy think about this is all the Honda motors that I have put together we never worry about quench and we throw all sorts of head, block, crank, rod, and piston combos together and then make 400+hp and drive the hell out of them on the street and the track. The thing we look at more then any thing would be compression and Rod / stroke ratio but I think that is more of an issue with how high we rev the motors.


I was concerned about my quench when I installed the motor, but I've found my stroker runs perfect on mid grade fuel. My quench is .095", which is considerable more than the desired .070" max quench.

Joshua-
Are you sure you want to go with the Crane cam? Numerous people have had problems with Crane cams. I have the Crane 753905 cam in my stroker, and it's running perfect with 6k miles. Had I known about the problems, I would have gone with a different cam. Read this thread:http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787667

[XJtoy]

So what pistons do I need to run I do a search and come up with nothing anybody have some info for me a link or something.

[Frank Z]

Dr. Dyno's sites...

http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/stroker.html
http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html

Stroker Engine calc. spreadsheet can be found here...
http://www.madxj.com/

[XJoshua]

The whole 260/272 Crane Cam failure thread seems to 50/50. What would cause a crane cam to fail, people not properly breaking in the motor, building it wrong, or just abussing their motors?

XJToy-
We use 4.0 Pistons, but they are oversized. Go to summitracing.com and in the search type "Jeep 4.0 Pistons" and it will list the oversizes that you can choose and plug into the calulator. Also in a previous post sonic testing is recommended for motors being bored .040" or more. If you only bore .030" you are safe and can avoid the sonic testing.

[Frank Z]

Any number of things can lead to cam failure, but I'd venture a guess that improper break-in is the leading cause.

Let's face facts, after building a stroker it's very difficult not to jump in and see what she'll do. I doubt that anyone will step forward and admit that they didn't follow proper engine break-in procedures, apply the proper assembly lube/grease, installed old lifters, etc. It's easier to blame the part than it is to accept the blame yourself.

I'm not saying that's the case with all of the Crane cam failures, but ya gotta wonder.....

[jeepinwi]

I think Crane uses materials that don't have the necessary hardness to endure the stress of heavy duty valve springs. I'm using the stock valve springs to help reduce the chance of a lifter/cam problem. This does reduce my redline to about 4800 rpm's, but I'll happily sacrifice some rpm's for longevity and reliability. I'm also using Lucas oil stabilizer in every oil change which I am a strong believer in.

[Frank Z]

I think Crane uses materials that don't have the necessary hardness to endure the stress of heavy duty valve springs.
Where did you get this info from, I'd be interested in reading up on it.

[jeepinwi]

Frank-
I find it hard to believe that several people are having problems with the same camshaft because of something other than a product defect. The camshafts are wearing out anywhere between 5k and 34k miles. Improper breakin would cause a cam to wear out within the forst 100 or so miles. One issue I've read was the crane cam has lobes that are 20-30% narrower than the stock camshaft. This would increase pressure on both the cam and lifters, thus contributing to the accelerated wear. Another issue is oil these days does not have the zinc and phosphorus additives that it used to. They are anti-wear additives that are somewhat necessary for a flat tappet engine.

[jeepinwi]

Where did you get this info from, I'd be interested in reading up on it.

I can not say for a fact that is true. I think the subject was brought up somewhere in this thread: http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655998&highlight=crane It may have been Dino who brought up the subject since his Crane cam failed also.

[XJoshua]

What would you suggest as a alternative to Crane Cams? Comp Cams?

My break in process is for first 500miles stay under 55MPH, and under 3200RPMs. After 500miles start revving a little higher for another 500miles to prevent a lip from forming at the top of the cyclinder bore. After that she's free to feel the full force of my foot :D

[jeepinwi]

If I were to build another stroker, I would go with a Comp Cam 68-231-4 or buck up for a Hesco RVOB6 cam.

[I dig AU]

I don't usally post on this forum because I have a ZJ, but since your talking about a 4.0 stroker, I'll add my .02. I'm currently building one too.

My machinist told me not to worry about my Crane cam. Everyone is having problems. He said he''s had 4 different Ford engines have cams go flat. He added "that's unheard of". It's an oil issue. That said, it would be foolish to not have the machine shop CHECK those seat and fully open pressures. Just for giggles, I had him check my Mopar springs out.

seat pressure (closed) 120 lbs
open at .500 lift (close enough to my .484 lift on the 905 cam) 260-270 lbs (right about what Crane recomends)

He added that almost all springs lose about 10% of their seat pressure in the first 15 minuites a motor is run, then settle in. That brings down that 120 lbs seat pressure to right where Crane recomends for the 901/905 cam, 107-108 lbs.

In addition, most performance cam companys now recommend you use a breakin additive for those first 20-30 min. Crane sells it, so does Comp Cams. I haven't checked anybody else. I've heard that the GM EOS additve is very good as well. And I believe they all recomend AGAINST synthetic oils in flat tappet motors, but if you must, wait until completely broken in. I have an opinion, and it's just an opinion. I think this is what happened to Dino's. I'm not looking for a fight. It's just my opinion. A flat tappet MUST spin or it'll eat the cam. I think synthetics are just to slick with performance springs. But they seem ok with stock motors.

your mileage may vary...

[XJoshua]

I think Im going to give CraneCams a call and see what their policy is, because they are infact the cheaper cam. If they will replace their cam if it goes flat, and the lifters that go bad, Id be willing to go with them. Im thinking about doing what Hesco does with their alunimum head which enlarges the oil gullies so you can retrieve a lifter without removing the head.

Any ideas on this, if I should, or should not.

[TRCM]

Can I get my valve tips filled down in order to make them flush with the retainer? See post #79 for picture.

Simply, I ask why ????

No engine I have built has had them flush like it seems you want, and I have been many engines, the latest made 1146 hp & 906 ft lbs on the dyno (single 4 bbl, no n20 or boost). The rocker roller or tip rides on the end of the valve stem anyway, not the retainer.

Now, If you need to do this to fit the rocker arm, then you should get different rockers instead. If you file the valve stem end down flush, then it will weaken the stem tip, and it could snap off.

[XJoshua]

But TRCM have you seen how much stem shows. I plan on running good ole P.O.S. stamped steel rockers until I can upgrade to some YellaTerra 1.6s. If I do use them without shaving the stem wouldnt I have to add alot of spacers to keep them from having a odd angle.

[I dig AU]

Can I get my valve tips filled down in order to make them flush with the retainer? See post #79 for picture.Simply, I ask why ????

No engine I have built has had them flush like it seems you want, and I have been many engines, the latest made 1146 hp & 906 ft lbs on the dyno (single 4 bbl, no n20 or boost). The rocker roller or tip rides on the end of the valve stem anyway, not the retainer.

Now, If you need to do this to fit the rocker arm, then you should get different rockers instead. If you file the valve stem end down flush, then it will weaken the stem tip, and it could snap off..[/QUOTE]

I agree! What's important:

installed height, function of what the spring manufactuer recomends to get proper seat and open pressures. Can be changed by using shims or machining the seat pockets, also to a degree by how deep the valve job is cut. There are also valve locks out there that change the installed height by where the grove is cut in them. They come in + or - .050. Grinding down tips is ill advised. Most valve tips are hardend. Maybe stainless valves are different, but still best left to your machine shop.

difference in length between the valves you bought (Chevy) and the stock valves. This will affect the valve train geometry.

Why you chose Chevy valves and springs, I don't understand. There are Mopar parts out there that match right up! Maybe you got a deal. Did you research the valve lengths? How about if the Chevy springs fit the spring seats, or does the head need to be machined for them to fit. Maybe you'll be just fine, but these things should be checked before purchase.

Trying to open up the stock iron head so you can remove lifters... I bet you hit a water jacket. The aluminum head is a custom casting.

Good luck with your build!

[Dr. Dyno]

And I believe they all recomend AGAINST synthetic oils in flat tappet motors, but if you must, wait until completely broken in. I have an opinion, and it's just an opinion. I think this is what happened to Dino's.

I used Castrol dino oil for the first 3000 miles so what you've said doesn't apply to me. I did use synthetic thereafter but it still took another 30000 miles or so for just one cam lobe (no.6 intake) to wear flat. Even then, I don't think the oil was the issue 'cause the problem started first with a collapsed (but not worn) no.6 exhaust lifter.

[I dig AU]

I used Castrol dino oil for the first 3000 miles so what you've said doesn't apply to me. I did use synthetic thereafter but it still took another 30000 miles or so for just one cam lobe (no.6 intake) to wear flat. Even then, I don't think the oil was the issue 'cause the problem started first with a collapsed (but not worn) no.6 exhaust lifter.

Dino, I have TONS of RESPECT for you! But if one of those tappets stops spinning anytime in it's life, bye bye cam. Even a little piece of grit getting by the filter could cause it. As I said previously, I think (my opinion only) it's a bad idea to run a pure synthetic in any flat tappet motor with higher spring pressures.

I do agree with you on the collapsed lifter, a quality issue that could happen to anyone. Not good if they have a pattern of failures.

Bowing as I back away... ;)

[XJoshua]

I dig AU-
Dino told me about the chevy valves, and valve springs. His word is golden to me as Im sure it is to everyone else on this forum. I have yet to measure the valve height differences between the 350 and the 4.0. The chevy springs are 1/64" longer, but this might be because the chevy springs have not been broken in, and the 4.0 springs have been.

I do plan on machining the head, because the valve stems need to be reemed inorder to properly fit. I did get a deal on all my parts for the head, so it wasnt something I was going to pass up.

[I dig AU]

I dig AU-
Dino told me about the chevy valves, and valve springs. His word is golden to me as Im sure it is to everyone else on this forum.

And it's true. If he says they'll fit, then I'm sure they will. He does know his parts! Where would we all be without his web site! :)

But, that said, it's always a good idea to have the shop check for clearences. Tell them how much lift your cam will run. Then you know it fits because the shop checked it out on YOUR head. Enjoy, your motor ought to scream!

[ChevelleSSLS6]

get the valves backcut for more flow could be added.

[XJoshua]

Backcutting valves is the doing of what? Is it really going to be worth it after larger valves, good springs, port n polish, 01 intake, pacesetters, and 3 angle valve grind? Using a simple HP 1/4mile calculator if I make 290HP at the crank Ill run a 12.5 on a 1/4Mile. Im sure this is way off and not really my goal, but if backcutting shaves some seconds off thatll always be welcomed.

EDIT: Nevermind kinda found out. Seems like its just changing the valve angles to 25-30*. Here's a linky I found. http://www.chicagolandmopar.com/techtips/backcutvalves.asp

[tealcherokee]

my simple hp-1/4 calculator that factors in weight, wind resisntance, and everything says my expected 390 BHP will bairly run me 12.8, so dont get your hopes up

[XJoshua]

I have no hopes, and no plans to be a track monkey, because track monkeyism leads to being a ricer :P

My only hope is that the engine cranks over within five days after being installed.

[Flash]

Back cuting the valve takes the sharp edge off from the 45* suffice of the valve.(kind like a (2) angle valve job with a (3) angle job on the head!

If your trying to get every HP out of it,.....its worth your time. if your going to put a cam in that is close to stock you won't find any HP by doing this.

With you running 2.02/160 valve in the head, you had better put a big cam in or it will probably port stall!

Hi rpm is were these mod show there power.


Flash.

[Dr. Dyno]

Dino, I have TONS of RESPECT for you! But if one of those tappets stops spinning anytime in it's life, bye bye cam. Even a little piece of grit getting by the filter could cause it. As I said previously, I think (my opinion only) it's a bad idea to run a pure synthetic in any flat tappet motor with higher spring pressures.

I do agree with you on the collapsed lifter, a quality issue that could happen to anyone. Not good if they have a pattern of failures.

Bowing as I back away... ;)

Hehe, it could have been the spring from the collapsed no.6 exhaust lifter that got lodged in the neighboring lifter bore and stopped the no.6 intake lifter from spinning, taking out the no.6 intake cam lobe in the process.
I still had 11 perfectly good cam lobes left so I still have a hard time believing using Mobil 1 could have caused the cam/lifter failure.

[I dig AU]

Hehe, it could have been the spring from the collapsed no.6 exhaust lifter that got lodged in the neighboring lifter bore and stopped the no.6 intake lifter from spinning, taking out the no.6 intake cam lobe in the process.
I still had 11 perfectly good cam lobes left so I still have a hard time believing using Mobil 1 could have caused the cam/lifter failure.

And there ya go. Just maybe. Obviously I don't work for Crane, but after a long talk with my machinist, I just don't believe it's ALL CRANE'S FAULT. There are exceptions. Mr. Shoeboy really got the shaft with the wrong parts first time around. But if the shop had check clearences for him (knowing his cam lift), it should have been caught right there. That's just a plain shame. Then cam gear / oil pressure issues (which are documented now on the web... search) and he's got to rebuild his bottom end, sad. The bottom line from my point of view, I don't think it's safe to take anybodies word for it. Things need to be checked (read measured) to be sure of fit. Then you know it's right on YOUR head. I'm going to use my Crane cam (and lifters), and everything will be checked. I'm building mine with a standard oil pump. We'll see if I can get away with it. Now, I just need more money to finish it. Sucks :)

Wishing the best on everyones stroker build!

[XJoshua]

Well will the 2.02/1.60 valve with Z28 Springs rated to work with something slightly more then a 260/272 cam show improvement with backcut valves?

Im going for budget and so far I should be able to end up with a grand total of building costs at $1800. I feel that is pretty budget for springing for the larger valves. Should I go for a larger cam and get a aftermarket vacumm canister? Remember this is a daily driver, and weekend pre-runner/crawler.

[Flash]

I'm not claiming that i am the "Know" of all this. Just trying to get all the info i can before i dive into one of these stroker and sharing what i have learned a long the way.
when i would plug in the numbers(Dyno Simulator) with a bigger valve then stock(1.91/1.50) the torq at low rpm(1500 rpm) would be down a fue Foot Pound of torq.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
K let me change my mind!

just went and ran a "stroker" Dyno Sim with my favorite cam...so fare(68-231-4) with the bigger valve installed and every this the same as before(head pocket ported) the 1500 RPM, HP and Torq DID NOT change but the max HP was up by 10 and the max torq was only a couple more but was at 500 more rpm!!!!!

I'm going to have to do a lot more playing with this now but larger valve will not hurt..........
larger ports will destroy torq........I have dun this in real life.

K finest rambling, you can wake up! :laugh:

[Frank Z]

Which program are you using? I can't seem to find a shareware dyno simulator that allows me to plug in all the variables.

[Flash]

Which program are you using? I can't seem to find a shareware dyno simulator that allows me to plug in all the variables.

http://www.auto-repair-manuals.com/desktop-dyno-cds.htm?OVRAW=Engine%20Dyno&OVKEY=desktop%20dyno%202000&OVMTC=advanced

I bought the one on the left side of the column 6th one down(with out pro tools!) you can add that on later if ya like!

way to much for me to grasp w/ out the pro tool.......... some day tho

its a grate program and has a video on how to us it.

You may have down loaded the "free" one that don't alow you to do much but see how it works!


Flash.

EDIT i can change every verible on this simulator, bore, stroke, rod ratio, comp,........you can evan build your on cam shaft if ya wanted to!

[Frank Z]

Thanks

[XJoshua]

Time for a quick update. I have all my parts and my backorder from hell summit racing pistons should show up today.

So I have all my parts except pistons, and have deburred the entire block. I have not ported yet until I get the larger valves in.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-14002-1.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-14001.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-15002.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-15003.jpg

Before:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-18018.jpg
After:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-18019.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/2007-02-18028.jpg

[XJoshua]

Alrighty. Well since my cash flow has died Ive been forced to seek out DIY projects.

The valve guides arent pressed into the block so instead of paying $60 to have them drilled, probally more since the $60 is have them pressed in. I need to know if I can use my buddies "as tall as me" drill press and some cobalt 11/32" drill bits, some wd40 and time to drill the valve guides myself. Thatll save me some money and let me get the engine off to machine shop sooner.

I was planning on installing the engine this last week in march, but thats not going to happen due to me loaning money to my dad which hasnt been payed back YET!!! So Im aimming for mid april. Hopefully itll be done by then since machine work is going to cost a estimated $720 with tax.

[Flash]

Alrighty. Well since my cash flow has died Ive been forced to seek out DIY projects.

The valve guides arent pressed into the block so instead of paying $60 to have them drilled, probally more since the $60 is have them pressed in. I need to know if I can use my buddies "as tall as me" drill press and some cobalt 11/32" drill bits, some wd40 and time to drill the valve guides myself. Thatll save me some money and let me get the engine off to machine shop sooner.

I was planning on installing the engine this last week in march, but thats not going to happen due to me loaning money to my dad which hasnt been payed back YET!!! So Im aimming for mid april. Hopefully itll be done by then since machine work is going to cost a estimated $720 with tax.


NO

If you get the guides of by 1* it will require more time cutting the valve seat area and could cause a real big problem with the geometry of the head.......


Don't do it, $60 is cheap compared to replacing the head and then spending another 60+ on it.

Flash.

[XJoshua]

Well I had a question on my valve springs, but nevermind the machine shop can get them at the right install height.

Good to know Flash, no harm in asking right.

[Flash]

Well I had a question on my valve springs, but nevermind the machine shop can get them at the right install height.

Good to know Flash, no harm in asking right.

Ya but i would double check the when ya get it back.........

don't now the install hight right of hand.

Flash.

[XJoshua]

Well the rods are finally reconditioned. I wasnt able to get a picture of my new to me compressor but its a PorterCable 20gal 6HPmax and I love it. Much, Much, MUCH!!! Better then the damn pancake I was using.

Here's some photos and on the 7th everything should be going off to be machined.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28013.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28014.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28015.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28016.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28017.jpg

And I did a pretty nice bit of bartering last night for another thing for the Jeep. Traded my universal game system steering wheel(purchased for $10), plus a pair of clairion 3 way 5x7 speakers(purchased for $60) for a GM series Pioneer 4Chan 600w amplifier(normally $200 retail) that is no longer in production.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28018.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/20073-28019.jpg

[Flash]

Theres a lot of T.L.C. going on there!;)

look good!

Flash.

[traitor5150]

What is all of the deburring for what does that do for the engine I dont see the point?? also all of the grinding of the rods are your trying to lighten them up???

[seanyb505]

It eliminates "stress risers", or so ive been told. Lightening them by removing material would make them weaker I would think

[Flash]

What is all of the deburring for what does that do for the engine I dont see the point?? also all of the grinding of the rods are your trying to lighten them up???

when you grind the casting seams out of the rod it make it stronger even tho you have less material there.

As far as the rest go's......I don't now unless XJoshua is having the crank off center ground, for an even longer stroke?......Na then his Title would not have read (4.6 stroker)

I now that some one here built a stroker, only to have a knock in the motor. When he remove the oil pan the one rod was just barely hitting on a casting edge as the rod came around!

Thats something that i will probably do to my block before it sent to the machine shop. Just for that reason!

Flash.

[jeepinwi]

I now that some one here built a stroker, only to have a knock in the motor. When he remove the oil pan the one rod was just barely hitting on a casting edge as the rod came around!

Thats something that i will probably do to my block before it sent to the machine shop. Just for that reason!

Flash.

I'm pretty sure that was Frank who had the rods hitting his main bearing girdle.

[Frank Z]

I'm pretty sure that was Frank who had the rods hitting his main bearing girdle.Sure was, I even had washers between the girdle and the head portion of the bolts. A second washer fixed the problem.

[XJoshua]

Im deburring the block to limit stress risers. I grinded the rods identical to the HESCO reconditioned rods. Except mine have more material left on the front and rear at the bushing. Makes almost a shape of a sharpened pencil.

I still need to deburr the camshaft area but that is really minor. The main cap area was the grande of burrs. The crankshaft its self it very clean. Right now Im doing the port and polish. I even put some money towards a scientific measuring cup. I should know the name of it since Im in a science class but hey its spring break. All ports will be around the same CC except the 1st and 6th exhaust ports which were formed different and smaller, but just means itll warm up quicker. Im not going to blow money on a flow test but the SA Tutorial says enough on how much more flow Ill have.

[Clean Racing]

Im deburring the block to limit stress risers. I grinded the rods identical to the HESCO reconditioned rods. Except mine have more material left on the front and rear at the bushing. Makes almost a shape of a sharpened pencil.



I don't want to sound mean or rain on your parade. I would not have ground so much off the top pads on the rods. Speaking from EXPERIENCE as an engine builder, you just created a nightmare for whom ever balances the engine. Those pads that you ground to a point are for match weighting the rods both small end, and big end.. I do like the fact that you beam ground the rods to releive the stress, now get em shot blasted by the machine shop as well... And get that thing balanced... Other than that it looks great... Nice work...

[1bolt]

okay so for those of us that know squat about stress risers exactly how do you strengthen those rods by taking material off? What is a stress riser and why does it weaken whatever it's on? Exactly where on the block would you concentrate on? Interesting stuff, seriously feel free to dig into the theory.

I'm guessing it's a bump or raised edge that heats and cools faster than the surounding area creating fractures? Is there a real longevity or reliability increase with doing all that work? I mean how many cracked blocks and broken rods are we seeing in 4.0 land?

[BBeach]

okay so for those of us that know squat about stress risers exactly how do you strengthen those rods by taking material off? What is a stress riser and why does it weaken whatever it's on? Exactly where on the block would you concentrate on? Interesting stuff, seriously feel free to dig into the theory.

I'm guessing it's a bump or raised edge that heats and cools faster than the surounding area creating fractures? Is there a real longevity or reliability increase with doing all that work? I mean how many cracked blocks and broken rods are we seeing in 4.0 land?Any time you have a crack, or bulge for that matter, it decreases the strength of the material greatly. Think of putting a flat head onto a flat block with one tiny 1mm tall .1mm thick "sharp bulge". Not sure if that helps you at all.

[Frank Z]

Any raised metal surface with a sharp or square edge is prone to cracking. Removal of the "Stress Riser" will help eliminate one potential area for cracks to form. The square edge does not need to be on the outside of a piece of metal, they are equally dangerous and damaging on an inside edge. The Britsch Aircraft manufacturer De Havilland learned this the hard way when their premier aircraft (The Comet) started breaking up in mid-air. It was determined that the inflight fuselage failures were a result of square windows. The cracks formed in the corners of the aircraft skin. That's why all aircraft are now equipped with window openings that have radiused corners.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

[XJoshua]

Well port and polish is done and it goes to be machined this tuesday or wednesday. I babied the head thats for sure spent the time cc'ing the port to the same volume. except the #2&5 ports which are cresent shapped.

good news is i have enough abrasives left to do the same to my 5M-GE and hopfully get that sold in a year to purchase a '84 Toyota Celica-Supra .

Now all thats left is buying the accessories to make sure it produces nothing but power.

All the CO folks what did you use for your air and fuel systems? 24lbs injectors proballys isnt worth it in our altitute is it? Should i just get a FPR or a Adjustable MAP Sensor? Or all three?

On the '00 intake my TB is 70mm and havent measured the tapped but should i have the opening on the intake the same size as that of the tapper?

Also custom fiberglass fan shrouds on the way for dual electric fans. havent chossen fan sizes yet though. would it be to much to deem this Jeep a Jeep Cherokee SRT6? lol

[Frank Z]

24lb ford injectors. Actually runs a tad lean at higher RPM's., though not enough to worry about.
Can't help ya on the MAP or FPR, my 97 don't need any add-on's.

[XJoshua]

Well i took my baby off to the machine shop today and got a estimate of the total price. Im looking at 890 which includes some parts labor is 726. i forgot to get them to order bearings or get a price for what they order them at. so add a extra 100 to the total.

Good news: my engine was super clean and that saves me 40 bucks on a load less of hot tanking. also the price for labor was much less then i thought.

bad news: my block might need to be bored passed .040". why is this bad i already have my pistons and rings. so anyone wanna trade unused .030 pistons for .050 or .060. or trade 4.0 block for 4.0 block that doesnt have a bad lip on it.

better news: my dad got me 3 canyon "looking"(has extra ribbing) 16" rims and 1 saw blade "looking" 15" rim for just hanging a ceiling fan. anyone wanna trade a sawblade for a canyon looking 16"er?

that pretty much takes care of all the new news. still havent recieved any info on my previously stated fuel problem.

EDIT: Well just called summit and they said since my pistons were backordered for a month they will use that as my date of shipment so there is no restocking fee. so ill just end up sending rings and pistons back and get a bigger size IF I HAVE TO.

[kremlin]

GET another block.

Find a shortblock from a '97 or newer that has the factory 'girdle' for strength -
the blocks are stronger too.

You can get these pretty cheaply - then have your .030 pistons installed.


Have you joined strokers @ yahoogroups.com yet ?

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/strokers/


We're currently arranging 'Roller Camshafts' for the 4.0 engine.

[Flash]

Well i took my baby off to the machine shop today and got a estimate of the total price. Im looking at 890 which includes some parts labor is 726. i forgot to get them to order bearings or get a price for what they order them at. so add a extra 100 to the total.

Good news: my engine was super clean and that saves me 40 bucks on a load less of hot tanking. also the price for labor was much less then i thought.

bad news: my block might need to be bored passed .040". why is this bad i already have my pistons and rings. so anyone wanna trade unused .030 pistons for .050 or .060. or trade 4.0 block for 4.0 block that doesnt have a bad lip on it.

better news: my dad got me 3 canyon "looking"(has extra ribbing) 16" rims and 1 saw blade "looking" 15" rim for just hanging a ceiling fan. anyone wanna trade a sawblade for a canyon looking 16"er?

that pretty much takes care of all the new news. still havent recieved any info on my previously stated fuel problem.

EDIT: Well just called summit and they said since my pistons were backordered for a month they will use that as my date of shipment so there is no restocking fee. so ill just end up sending rings and pistons back and get a bigger size IF I HAVE TO.


If yours is the old renix block, then there is plenty of metal in the cylinder walls for over .060" so i wouldn't be warred there.

If you haven't modified the pistons.....I would bet that they would exchange them for the larger bore.

If you have done the cc enlarging on top of the piston........I would be looking of another block so that you can use them pistons.

Flash.

[XJoshua]

Pistons and rings are already being shipped back. Its a 92-95 block. Had the bores gauged and even if the rings wear in deep he said it wouldnt break. .060 pistons should arrive next week.

He's working on the head right now since I cant have it balanced until the pistons arrive. Need to take him the old 4.0 valves tomorrow since I cant make the trip to the east side today.

[Flash]

Pistons and rings are already being shipped back. Its a 92-95 block. Had the bores gauged and even if the rings wear in deep he said it wouldnt break. .060 pistons should arrive next week.

He's working on the head right now since I cant have it balanced until the pistons arrive. Need to take him the old 4.0 valves tomorrow since I cant make the trip to the east side today.

.060 over bore, will be fine.......any thing over that could......be scary!


At the vary most, you will need a better cooling system.(Due to more heat from the combustion chamber getting into the cooling system.)

Flash.

[seanyb505]

What efforts can be taken to increase cooling? Would a 180 thermostat be a good portion of a solution? Im looking into finally getting my stroker underway and trying to keep costs down, I would try not to go with a new radiator.

Also on a side note, my jeep is a 97, should I stick with a 97 block or would anything from 97+ be acceptable?

[Flash]

What efforts can be taken to increase cooling? Would a 180 thermostat be a good portion of a solution? Im looking into finally getting my stroker underway and trying to keep costs down, I would try not to go with a new radiator.

Also on a side note, my jeep is a 97, should I stick with a 97 block or would anything from 97+ be acceptable?

SOME ONE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG
but as far a block go......you can use to old Renix block, all the way up to the latest block!
A Lot of thing changed around it but all bolt up.....as far as the block go's...Right?


Flash.

[Dr. Dyno]

SOME ONE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG
but as far a block go......you can use to old Renix block, all the way up to the latest block!

You are correct Flash. If you use a '95 and earlier block, you can retrofit the main bearing cap studs and girdle from a later block.

[XJoshua]

What efforts can be taken to increase cooling? Would a 180 thermostat be a good portion of a solution? Im looking into finally getting my stroker underway and trying to keep costs down, I would try not to go with a new radiator.

Also on a side note, my jeep is a 97, should I stick with a 97 block or would anything from 97+ be acceptable?

Im going with a eBay 3Core updated to the open cooling system probally with a 185 Thermo and dual electric fans.

---------------------------------------

Well time for a update. Well not really but some photos to detail my previous post.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/200705-12003.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/200705-12005.jpg
#6 finished with the first phase of boring.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/200705-12004.jpg
The black line on the left is the lip that couldnt be removed at .030 over.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/th_200705-12010.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/?action=view&current=200705-12010.flv)
The machine in action. Sorry about the lighting.

He's working on the head right now and Ill be back over that way when the .060 over pistons and ring set arrive.

[XJoshua]

sorry for the double post.

what igniton electronics is everyone running on the renixs, adjustable fpr, adjustable map or both? also im high altitude and plan to move to lower altitude in a few years. also which injectors should i get for a 4.7L 26lbs?

[streetpirate]

http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php

injector size is based on hp requirements, IE my plan is for 290hp at the crank , so it says ~30.7 so i would get 32lb ford injectors off ebay. the same motor with an eaton m90 supercharger at 360hp with bsfc of .7, would want 52lb injectors.

[jeepman121]

before you build it look at this http://www.precisionengine.com/rebuilt-engines/jeep-crate-engines/index.html cheap!!!

[jeepman121]

before you build it look at this http://www.precisionengine.com/rebuilt-engines/jeep-crate-engines/index.html cheap!!!

[JohnX]

What is the impedance value for an XJ... High or Low?

[Flash]

What is the impedance value for an XJ... High or Low?


?? IMPEDANCE?? are you talking about the injectors.

Flash

[Dr. Dyno]

What is the impedance value for an XJ... High or Low?

High

[XJoshua]

Well to keep my weekly viewers apprised of my progress I have some good news.

Pistons and ring set arrive around June 7th! More good news...I got my 3row radiator tonight at 9:16pm very odd time for arrival but it got here in two days. Even better news my wanting to be killed already 4.0L has thrown me a bone and stopped over heating after $80.00 in random testings and parts. Turns out if you use two hose clamps on every end of a hose things stop leaking.

Bad news. Im almost over budget and will go over budget by a bit. My budget in march was $2500 i have spent $2180.85 so far on parts and machine labor(does not include machine shop parts ordered(about $200ish)).

I still need to purchase fuel injectors(30lbs to start might go down to 26lbs). 99+ intake manifold fuel rail and TB. exhaust headers. build my exhaust system. then random electronics(mainly a adjustable map which i might just make one).

So with all this plugged in to best of luck value ill be over budget by...dun...dun...dun...$380.85 which will increase more once i get a total of machine shop parts purchased. Still comming in at just around $3k for a high-buck type of stroker built for less than the high-buck i would say i got lucky.

I think that takes care of all the news. ohh ill post a detailed excel file of my budget when im finished with notes all over the place.

Questions!!!
Is the built in tranny cooler on a 3row radiator worthy of cooling a aw4 with a kid that enjoys pedal to the metal 25% of his driving time?

Should I keep my 5.0L TB at 65mm or increase it to 70mm or 75mm?

Is there a serial on my AW4 that will tell me my spline count because I have a chance to get a NP241 or is it NV?

For the renix system is a adj map enough to tune my fuel needs? Will I need a higher rate fuel pump with 30lbs injectors? Adj FPR?

[Flash]

Well to keep my weekly viewers apprised of my progress I have some good news.

Pistons and ring set arrive around June 7th! More good news...I got my 3row radiator tonight at 9:16pm very odd time for arrival but it got here in two days. Even better news my wanting to be killed already 4.0L has thrown me a bone and stopped over heating after $80.00 in random testings and parts. Turns out if you use two hose clamps on every end of a hose things stop leaking.

Bad news. Im almost over budget and will go over budget by a bit. My budget in march was $2500 i have spent $2180.85 so far on parts and machine labor(does not include machine shop parts ordered(about $200ish)).

I still need to purchase fuel injectors(30lbs to start might go down to 26lbs). 99+ intake manifold fuel rail and TB. exhaust headers. build my exhaust system. then random electronics(mainly a adjustable map which i might just make one).

So with all this plugged in to best of luck value ill be over budget by...dun...dun...dun...$380.85 which will increase more once i get a total of machine shop parts purchased. Still comming in at just around $3k for a high-buck type of stroker built for less than the high-buck i would say i got lucky.

I think that takes care of all the news. ohh ill post a detailed excel file of my budget when im finished with notes all over the place.

Questions!!!
Is the built in tranny cooler on a 3row radiator worthy of cooling a aw4 with a kid that enjoys pedal to the metal 25% of his driving time?

Should I keep my 5.0L TB at 65mm or increase it to 70mm or 75mm?
I thing the 65mm will be just fine.......you can always experiment with that latter.

Is there a serial on my AW4 that will tell me my spline count because I have a chance to get a NP241 or is it NV?
:dunno:

For the renix system is a adj map enough to tune my fuel needs? Will I need a higher rate fuel pump with 30lbs injectors? Adj FPR?

I thing the stock ones(inj and fuel pump) will work just fine for braking in the cam.....and eng, in.
then you can make a better guess at the right one latter.

Map adj is always a good idea, but.......I would get the cam broke in first.

Flash.

[Gojeep]

From what I read, all renix AW4's are 21 spline and 91 on and the HO's brought out the 23 spline ones.

[Gojeep]

Also I have a wrie up on my site for making your own adjustable MAP sensor as does Dino.
www.go.jeep-xj.info (http://www.go.jeep-xj.info)

[XJoshua]

Forgot to ask. Rod bolts? How much can they be stretched before they are bad? Or should I just get some new hesco rod bolts?

[Frank Z]

Use ARP Rod Bolts. Check out their website, lot's of really good info on fastener stretch.

[Flash]

Use ARP Rod Bolts. Check out their website, lot's of really good info on fastener stretch.

I would 2nt the ARP Rod Bolts. Just Cheep Insurance!!!!

Flash


EDIT: I would have the big end of the rod resized after the ARP'S are installed...........Just to make sure that is perfectly round after the bolts are installed.

[XJoshua]

well im having the rods reconiditioned aswell but everything is done but the crank rods and pistons because i havent recieved the pistons yet since they are on backorder.

I guess ill get arp.

[XJoshua]

Bad News: The chevy 350 springs I have arent going to work because they dont have a wide base. The person doing the machine work says no one in our small city has anything to machine the spring seats to the proper size. So this is probally going to put me back a week but the machinist said he'll call some people he knows about doing a trade.

Good News: ARP Rod Bolts are on their way aswell as ARP Head Studs. Sorry but coudnt find any main studs but my main bolts are brand new so I have no fear there.

[Frank Z]

McCabe Motorsports did mine.

[XJoshua]

Next week, thursday my damn engine will be ready to assemble. I know what youre saying its about god damn time. 8 months and little under $2500 i gained .7 litres and hopfully 100HP.

Ill post pictures up next week when I have it back up on the stand.

[streetpirate]

once its all together, would you write up a parts list with prices and machine shop prices?

[XJoshua]

Well I got my engine back today. Paid all cash so I got a little bit of a discount aswell. Total for parts labor etc is $939.74. With that added into my costs Im officially ~54ish over budget. Well I started to check things the second I got it back. All Ive checked so far is piston ring gap which is in spec and deck height which seems off by alot. As in more deck then stock? Thats all all Ive checked I need to get a valve spring pressure reader since Ive got larger base SBC valve springs now instead of my old narrow base.

Other then the deck it looks hawt.

Questions:
I measured the deck from the block deck to the oil pan deck and it measured 9 9/16in. Which if you divide the fraction is 9.562 and stock I believe is 9.453. Am I measuring correctly. I used a square.

Since my block deck doesnt looked touched at all the deck on the head had .010in removed. Do I just subtract that from my block deck height and then I can plug that into my andreas calc or is there some special calculation to use.

CCs? Im going to purchase a mL tall beacker tomorrow to measure my piston dish volume andcombustion chamber volume. Is alcohol a good liquid to use to mearuse with or is there a cheap alternative liquid I could use to get a acuarate measurment?

My main consern right now is my deck height and piston dish volume since if they are stock my compression ratio will be to high. Well I just plugged the stock measurments in and not accounting for the head deck removal I get a CR of 9.74:1 and my quench is in the red at 0.021? Thats also assuming that silvolite pistons has a dish volume of 13cc. Also another consern is interference. But I should be able to fix valve slap once I get it assembled and can install push rods of the right length.

[Flash]

Well I got my engine back today. Paid all cash so I got a little bit of a discount aswell. Total for parts labor etc is $939.74. With that added into my costs Im officially ~54ish over budget. Well I started to check things the second I got it back. All Ive checked so far is piston ring gap which is in spec and deck height which seems off by alot. As in more deck then stock? Thats all all Ive checked I need to get a valve spring pressure reader since Ive got larger base SBC valve springs now instead of my old narrow base.

Other then the deck it looks hawt.

Questions:
I measured the deck from the block deck to the oil pan deck and it measured 9 9/16in. Which if you divide the fraction is 9.562 and stock I believe is 9.453. Am I measuring correctly. I used a square.

Since my block deck doesnt looked touched at all the deck on the head had .010in removed. Do I just subtract that from my block deck height and then I can plug that into my andreas calc or is there some special calculation to use.

CCs? Im going to purchase a mL tall beacker tomorrow to measure my piston dish volume andcombustion chamber volume.
My main consern right now is my deck height and piston dish volume since if they are stock my compression ratio will be to high. Well I just plugged the stock measurments in and not accounting for the head deck removal I get a CR of 9.74:1 and my quench is in the red at 0.021? Thats also assuming that silvolite pistons has a dish volume of 13cc. Also another consern is interference. But I should be able to fix valve slap once I get it assembled and can install push rods of the right length.



I just us water, You just need to dry and wipe every thing with oil a immediately after you do your tests
put the piston in with out the rings, and add a thin layer of grease to seal the piston to the cylinder wall.

Plexi glass work grate for CC the cylinder head, with a thin layer of grease there to seal it.

Flash

[XJoshua]

Well my andreasstrokercalc went fubar so can someone plug in these specs and post their finding.

Head Volume: 56cc
Bored Over: 0.060"
Stroker of Crank: 3.895"
Decking Block: 0.0"
Plaining Head: 0.010"
Custom Piston: 12.2cc
Rod Length: 5.875"
Piston Height: 1.581

Im interested on the specs for the 0.045" headgasket. Also can you fiddle around with the piston cc until my CR is close to 9.5:1.

Now in another post someone mentions static and dynamic compression ratio? Does that mean if the calc shows a guess of 9.8:1 would my actual compression once valves are clossed be less/more around 9.5:1?

Also the valves would close and open way before the piston reaches TDC right? Im very concerned about valve slap right now and dont have enough parts to do the playdoh test.

Thanks for the quick response. Im axieous to get it together and somewhat afraid that i might have had it machined wrong. So the help and suggestions are greatly welcomed.

[Israel]

With your specs above, I'm getting a 10.08:1 CR. A piston dish volume of 18.1ccs would give you your desired 9.5:1 CR. Quench is .0945 if you're interested. I can't help you with static vs. dynamic CR, sorry.

[BBeach]

Are there any free engine software out there? I remember using something from dr. dino's website and it worked great (for acceleration) but it had some issues. And are there any that can tell you a dynamic compression ratio if you specify the cam?

[Flash]

Are there any free engine software out there? I remember using something from dr. dino's website and it worked great (for acceleration) but it had some issues. And are there any that can tell you a dynamic compression ratio if you specify the cam?


Go here
http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

then go allmost to the bottom of the page until you find this



DCR Calculator with VB6 Runtime files (http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/dcrvb6.zip) 1.55 MB
DCR Calculator without VB6 Runtime files (http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/dcr.zip) 423 KB
*A note to users outside the United States.* The DCR Calculator was written with the Regional Setting of Windows set to the "English (United States)" setting.


After you down load and install, ... I just keep mine on my Desk top so its ease to use.(Me and computer don't get along the best:confused1 :laugh:

And here is another one that you can use on the INTERNET!

http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Whether you cam is figure with seat to seat spec or @.050 will decide which one you need!

XJoshua, you will need to know the valve open and close spec before you can figure "Dynamic CR".....aculaly you only need the Int valve "Close" spec.

Flash

[Dr. Dyno]

With your specs above, I'm getting a 10.08:1 CR.

I get 9.94:1 but that's assuming that the combustion chamber volume is 56cc AFTER milling ther head.
The Speed Pro 677P/677CP pistons would yield a CR of 9.5:1 with a 0.004" tighter quench.

[XJoshua]

Hint of the day: Radiator caps should never be removed when the engine temp is 210*F! Dont ask...

Questions:
Im getting antzee and want to just have the stroker done. Will a 10:1 compression ratio force me to buying 91 octane at the pump or will 87 octance sufice? Also what hazards will I run into when running a 10:1 compression ratio?

Last question... Could I use the stock stamped steel rocker arms without problems for the first few months of break in and staying bellow 3000rpms? I can only afford one of two things right now. 1.) YellaTerras or 2.) Parts to assemble. #2 im in favor of because Im tired of adding oil and antifreeze every week.

Also could someone rerun the numbers above in the calc except with a head volume of 57 and 58?

[Frank Z]

10:1?!? In Colorado?!?!? You're gonna need a helluvalot more Octane than 91. Keep it closer to 9.4 maybe 9.5:1, and your still gonna need to run it on 91 octane.

[Israel]

10:1?!? In Colorado?!?!? You're gonna need a helluvalot more Octane than 91. Keep it closer to 9.4 maybe 9.5:1, and your still gonna need to run it on 91 octane.

I thought the rule was the higher your elevation, the lower your octane requirement? In any case, I agree that 10:1 is way too high for 91 unless you have an aluminum head and/or are retarding the timing.

[Frank Z]

You are correct, that's the reason that gas stations here don't sell anything higher than 91. At 9.4:1 I still get a little knock on long uphill pulls.

[XJoshua]

My cloyes dual roller timming gears are adjustable. But doesnt the renix and for that fact all 4.0 FI engines retard or advance the timming themselves. So wouldnt that make adjusting the cam gears useless?

[JJacobs]

A couple things. First, the computer controls ignition timing, which is when the spark fires relative to piston position in the cylinder. The adjustable cam gears control when the valves move relative to piston position. Advancing the cam will give more torque, retarding will give more higher end HP at the expense of torque.

Also, I wouldn't worry one bit about running the engine over 3000 rpm during the break-in period, or exceeding 50 mph, or any of that other mumbo-jumbo. If it's gonna blow you might as well find out sooner than later, and running the engine hard will absolutely not hurt it one bit if it's built right. In fact you run the risk of the rings not seating if you baby it too much. About the only break-in procedure worth mentioning is to not stay at any one rpm for very long, i.e. vary your cruise speed on the highway a little, or shift in and out of overdrive. Drive it like you want to or risk a soft engine.

Be realistic with your expectations. A 17% displacement increase (4.0-4.7) is not likely to give a 56% power increase (177-277hp), even counting the cylinder head work.

[XJoshua]

So then with the blow up factor i should be fine running stock stamped steel rocker arms for a couple months?

[Frank Z]

So then with the blow up factor i should be fine running stock stamped steel rocker arms for a couple months?Got em in mine and they are staying put.

[XJoshua]

Well today I started installing the rotating assembly. So far the most fun Ive had my whole summer vacation.

Just to get these did yu do it right questions out of the way.

Yes I installed the rings correctly.

Yes I used installation lube on all bearing.

No I didnt break and rings.

Yes the oil rings are properly seated.


Also when I was getting a ring compressor I forgot to get a ring expander so I used the jeeper inside me to fab up my own tool with a drill and a pair of pliers. Worked great but would have worked quicker if i had a drill press.

Now Im at a slow down since I cant get the connecting rod caps off. So Im going to walmart for a drain decloger that inflates to pop the cap and also pick up some masking tape so I can start painting the head, block, intake and oil pan.

Ill try and picture up soon, but im currently embarrased to go outside since my nose got sunburned and is peeling hardcore. Also if youre woundering why I have to go out to use the net thats because my phone can upload pics and the pc doesnt have net so I have to use the library.

[1bolt]

If you're leaving that compression ratio and quench alone you should prepare yourself for lots of ping, unless I'm reading what you posted wrong. You might even have issues with 91 octane.

I was too lazy to re-read the whole thread to see if you CC'ed your combustion chambers when you did the head, but your piston dish is insufficient to lower your CR into pump gas territory...

I'm sure you're fired up to move on with your build but you would be well advised to get your quench into spec and get your chosen piston dished more, before you put it all together only to have unmanageably high CR.

[XJoshua]

The machine shop warned me not to have the pistons cc'd since i had the entire rotating assembly balanced and that it might add roughness to my ride. I asked for the combustion chamber to be cc'd and he claimed he ran 87oct in his 10:1 chevelle. So I just asked for him to cc the head to where my combustion ratio was 9.4:1 and he said he'd do it for free since he didnt see that on my spec sheet and I had already paid. I had gotten it back in one days time so thats why I started the build yeasterday.

Ohh and the paint job looks awesome so far. Flat black for the block and oil pan. Cast alunimum for the head and i still need to clean up the valve cover but itll be wrinkle black with the platues polished.

All that i need now are small parts for the timming cover and misc bolts. Also I need to grind the head a bit because the arp head studs bolts dont tighten down. They are to close to the wall for the ones under the valve cover.

[Israel]

I asked for the combustion chamber to be cc'd and he claimed he ran 87oct in his 10:1 chevelle.

Maybe with a super lopy cam, but you're sure as hell not going to pull it off with your stroker. Not even with 91 octane!

[MudDawg]

"87 octane in a 10 to 1 Chevelle"......ummm....this ain't a smallblock....the small block is more likely to have good quench height without having to surface the block, and the heads are much more quench friendly than a 4.0.....especially early small chamber heads....if you built a short rod stroker with 4.0 pistons, the quench will be awful large even if the stock deck height on the block is even close to spec...and most blocks deck out quite a bit higher than spec....you only have one small area of the head surface to use for quench, the rest is open chamber...so you need to make as much good of it as you can...

As for the stock rockers....I ran a set of stockers for quite some time on my 2.5 Mod1 and they worked ok at RPM you can only dream of with a 4.0....eventually they did wear out....but you can break anything with judicious application of abuse...:eek:

The 2.5 in the Heep is high compression (around 11:1) and needs 100 octane to run with full ignition advance under a load....and when I uncork the blue Genie, it gets fed 116......no it's not a DD....it will "run" on 87 octane with the timing pulled way back...but that makes it really weak in the knees...

But then again dynamic and calculated CR can be miles apart depending on the cam and set up...for example on my dragbike...the calculated CR is 15.8 ..the leakdown rate is less than 4% hot.....depending on the cam timing, the cranking pressure can be as high as 255 psi and as low as 125 psi....same cams....different timing setups....in a street 4.0 with a typical cam, the VE is very good at low RPM....this drives the cylinder pressure into detonation range under a low rpm high load situation.

[Flash]

You might want to do some re thinking on the compression ratio...........while its still a lot easer, to change now, then after you are fed up with pinging and the ultra light foot that you have to keep using to keep it alive.
I haven't ran your number, but if every one else is right, and i thing they are..........You are going to have to add or mix racing fuel at 7-8 dollars a gallon to keep it from pinging.

I now you are excited to get it together(so would I ! ) but don't be blinded by the fact that others have built stroker, much like your, and trying to help you from makeing.......... something you will not like.

10:00:1 even in Colorado is not going to fly with a 4.0L whether its stroked or not.

Stop, do some more research before you continue.............

Flash.

[1bolt]

if your guy CC'ed the combustion chambers out it will be fairly easy to tell, you said you were getting a beaker anyway... If he CC'ed enough for 9.5:1 or lower you might be okay with 91 and that bad quench...

[Flash]

XJoshua: In order to get an accurate CR, i need to now the total cc of the piston at TDC in the bore,(this will include the cc of the dished piston) or the piston distance down the bore,(.020,.030 ETC) at TDC and the exact CC of the piston dish.

Either way i can get a much more accurate CR

Right now with all the figures you gave above, and me guessing that the piston is setting at .030" down at TDC. your compression ratio is 10.30:1:scared:

Make sure you have all you figures corrected, double checked and i will try it again.

I thing your first step is to go with the stock (thicker) head gasket then the .043/.045 head gasket.

Just changing the head gasket to the stock. 051" head gasket changed the compression from 10.30:1 to 10.17:1

As far as the machine shop worrying about the balance job. as long as all the piston are dish so that they weigh the same,..................I don't thing the out of balance would be seen, at least in the max rpm of the rev limiter!

Maybe if we turned are eng at 65 to 7000 rpm.

all you would need to do is to increase the dish depth by 4 to 6 cc to accomplices you goal.

Flash

[XJoshua]

Well the block is done. The machinist made a good point about not messing with the balanced rotating assembly. So Ill do everything I can to the head. The comb chamber is pretty well enlarged to allow the larger valves to open without rubbing against the dome. All Ive done to that is paint it and there is s still head work to be done so thats my next thing to get started on. Tomorrow Ill put pics up and pick up another copy of the calculator to help me get it done. All I can really do to fix stuff is change the chamber volume which I did and also change the headgasket but I dont want to go way to larger and end up with a BHG after 80k miles.

Some of these mistakes are mine because I was using the calculator wrong but mistakes are expected the first time. Also Im not the only one excitied about it my Jeep gets hot and bother everyday I read the specs to it. Pushed 210* today and has been around 170* lately. But thats because I refuse to replace the fail safe thermo.

[Flash]

Well the block is done. The machinist made a good point about not messing with the balanced rotating assembly. So Ill do everything I can to the head. The comb chamber is pretty well enlarged to allow the larger valves to open without rubbing against the dome. All Ive done to that is paint it and there is s still head work to be done so thats my next thing to get started on. Tomorrow Ill put pics up and pick up another copy of the calculator to help me get it done. All I can really do to fix stuff is change the chamber volume which I did and also change the headgasket but I dont want to go way to larger and end up with a BHG after 80k miles.

Some of these mistakes are mine because I was using the calculator wrong but mistakes are expected the first time. Also Im not the only one excitied about it my Jeep gets hot and bother everyday I read the specs to it. Pushed 210* today and has been around 170* lately. But thats because I refuse to replace the fail safe thermo.

like i said before, if you can enlarge the cc 4-6 CC, whether it be piston dish or head volume you will be happier in the end
the would mean a head volume around 62+CC is there enough head material to do that.............I don't know, have heard of polishing the head to get rid of the casting bumps(to help on detonation or pinging) don't know of any one trying to increase the CC of the head chamber that much.

Undo the thermostat housing and you can at least get a good idea how much there is between the combustion chamber and the water jacket....................

Flash.

[XJoshua]

Well Ive been procratinating and still havent gotten a gradulated cylinder to measure yet but just to mess with what Im showing I need how would this work out.

Comb Chamber Vol of 60cc
And removing some of the bumps in the pistons to 13cc
With all the old specs gets me a comp ratio of 9.6:1 using the current headgasket. My quench will be .021 below stock. Now I really need schooled on quench is that the difference between the new and old TDC? Or how far the piston sits below the deck?

But whats a accepatble amount of quench for high altitude no more or less then .020 .015 .010?

Also Ive desided to slow down but Im done doing work to the block so my problem need to be fixed with head and headgasket as listed before. Ill sand off some of the circles on the piston dishes to try and get 13cc out of them. As for the head once I measure the cc's I guess ill polish them to get every little cc I can out it.

Some other tech questions:
How far can timming be retarded or advanced before it can cause problems or consider improper use of a stroker?

Valve timming. Im all about getting torque out of it but is any damage cause by retarding I think it is, for torque? Do ignition and valve timming have any relationship to each other. Such as change one the other needs adapted? Reason Im asking is because once the timming chain cover goes on I dont want it removed for atleast 5years.

[Flash]

Well Ive been procratinating and still havent gotten a gradulated cylinder to measure yet but just to mess with what Im showing I need how would this work out.
Go to a veterinarian hospital and ask then for a 60 cc syringe ( Shot for a horses......large animals) there like $2

Comb Chamber Vol of 60cc
And removing some of the bumps in the pistons to 13cc
With all the old specs gets me a comp ratio of 9.6:1 using the current headgasket. My quench will be .021 below stock. Now I really need schooled on quench is that the difference between the new and old TDC? Or how far the piston sits below the deck?

Does that mean that you are .021" below the deck at TDC? or are you saying it is .021" below stock..... .042". This is vary important and need to be measured exact, before a accurate number can be figured

But whats a accepatble amount of quench for high altitude no more or less then .020 .015 .010?

Basically, Quench is the distance the piston is form the head( piston below deck at TDC + head gasket thickness)
Piston below deck (.030)
Head gasket ------- (.045)
-------------
______________=.075" Quench
less Quench, is better, but raises compression, and if your Quench is to tight, you could slam the piston into the head at top RPM. (there would have to be a lot of block decking to ever worry about that. on a stroker or stock 4.0L)


Also Ive desided to slow down but Im done doing work to the block so my problem need to be fixed with head and headgasket as listed before. Ill sand off some of the circles on the piston dishes to try and get 13cc out of them. As for the head once I measure the cc's I guess ill polish them to get every little cc I can out it.

Some other tech questions:
How far can timming be retarded or advanced before it can cause problems or consider improper use of a stroker?

Timing in non adj. time is set by the crank sensor and it is not adj.

Valve timming. Im all about getting torque out of it but is any damage cause by retarding I think it is, for torque? Do ignition and valve timming have any relationship to each other. Such as change one the other needs adapted? Reason Im asking is because once the timming chain cover goes on I dont want it removed for atleast 5years.

Advancing the cam from it -0- seating will raise torque at a lower rpm while lowering top HP. Retarding the cam from -0- will raise the top rpm HP but low end torque will suffer.
If you have bought a cam that you realize now, is to big or small this will help but will not fix it.
I would run it straight up!(-0-)


Flash.

EDIT
Here is a article that explains it much better then I

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/squishcalc1.html

[MudDawg]

Minimum quench is .040 to .045 depending on if the piston's material and piston/cylinder clearance. Basically "0.00" deck height with the head gasket making the quench clearance.

Cam timing: The more advanced the timing, the higher the cylinder pressure at low rpm (more likely to detonate), but more torque....Retarded timing lowers the low rpm cylinder pressure (reduces the likelyhood of detonation) but moves the power higher in the rpm range.

To understand the relationship between cam timing and Compression Ratio...basically put a stock cam in a motor with stock pistons will have say... 8:1 compression and yield 175 psi cylinder pressure at cranking speed...remember the 175psi. Now we pull the stock cam out and install one with more duration and overlap with the intention of moving the power up the rpm band....in doing so because of blowdown and reversion due to the longer duration and overlap, the cranking pressure is lowered in this example to 125 psi....the result is less torque at low rpm...that is why cammed motors are soft of the bottom...one way to recover some of the lost torque down low is to up the theoretical compression ration by installing pistons with less bowl (in the case of a 4.0)...this will bring the cylinder pressure at cranking speed back to pre-hotrod cam level....fixes it right?? not exactly...the reduced combustion chamber volume cuts into fluid volume compared to the stock set up....we end up with a bit less fuel/air mixture...since the motor is powered by the amount of heat produced by combustion, the reduced volume of the charge means less volume to expand...peak cylinder pressure may match the previous number....but as the crank rotates and the swept volume increases, the cylinder pressure drops of rapidly...since cylinder pressure acting on the piston/rod apply pressure to the crank, generating rotational torque the lower the pressure, the less the torque.

This seemed to start out as a simple explaination....it could take pages...

[JJacobs]

It's not timming it's timing- one M.

Have you played with the burette lately? I only ask because your cc expectations aren't gonna happen the way you want. You know a typical Chevy flat top piston with the half-moon valve reliefs cut into them? Those reliefs are 2-3 cc apiece. So sanding your piston tops isn't gonna get you 13cc, no way no how.

Have you figured out quench yet? Let's try this explanation- drop a book on a table and note how the air that was underneath goes shooting out at high speed in all directions. In an engine, of course, physical contact isn't made but the parts come quite close together. The quench band in the 4.0 is the flat wedge at the top of the piston along one side. It aligns with the flat deck of the cylinder head off to the side of the valves. If the parts don't get close enough, you don't get the air blasting out from between into the chamber and swirling the air/fuel mixture resulting in uneven burns and detonation.

[Flash]

JJacobs,
.... XJoshua first piston spec. was 12.2 CC. It could be possible to to get 0.80 of one CC doing that. See post 380.

XJoshua, i when and re did the compression spec that you gave on post 380, and came up with a SCR of 10.2:1(assuming ) the piston is below the block .030 (a TDC) and with the piston dish cc at 13 CC and the combustion chamber at 60 cc (from the 56 CC) lowered the SCR was lowered to 9.7:1..........could be low enough for your altitude, but this is still a guess, need real world CC specs to now for sure, if you replaced the .043 with the .051 the compression dropped to 9.54:1

Flash.

[JJacobs]

Oops, I was going with this post. Guess that wasn't the whole story. Post 380 hasn't happened yet, in this thread anyway. :)


Also Ive desided to slow down but Im done doing work to the block so my problem need to be fixed with head and headgasket as listed before. Ill sand off some of the circles on the piston dishes to try and get 13cc out of them. As for the head once I measure the cc's I guess ill polish them to get every little cc I can out it.

[Flash]

Sorry, post # 172, shows his spec.....I looked at his post count instead of the post #:twak: :D

Flash

[1bolt]

So hows the build coming? Did you get the CC volume and piston dish sorted out?

[XJoshua]

Alright Flash I finally had time to get into my garage to measure the piston distance from the deck. At TDC(or pretty damn close) the piston sits 0.0615 give or take a lilttle bit below the deck. Im just using feeler gauges since thats the most technical thing I have to measure with.

Also with the head shim according to ASC(the calculator) my compression is at 9.07:1 with a quench of 0.066 :S

Is that quench even good. Because quench is just a distance. So would it be fair to compair it to volume. Since more quench means less compression. Why would quench even matter if as I think its the same as removing cc material?

[1bolt]

Quench has no relation to compression what so ever. Maybe you're thinking it does because as you shave the top of the block to improve quench (make the measurement smaller) you will also coincidentally RAISE compression. As quench gets better compression does not get lower, if anything it gets higher because to improve quench in our case with home brew strokers you must do things that also tends to lower the amount of empty space for fuel and air to mix.

Quench is like taking your hands and clapping next to a candle... the less space between your hands the more forceably the air between them is pushed out. Obviously our hands can touch without consequences, but a motor needs a minimum distance so the piston doesn't slap into the head. It's better that this distance be very close so the quench effect is at it's strongest.

Compression is totally unrelated to this "quench area" and you can lower it without effecting quench at all, or raise it for that matter, by useing pistons with the same quench surface area, but deeper "dish" to lower compression.

Now all that said, your quench is not great but your compression is in the low 9's so you should be able to run 89 or 91 octane to compensate for the quench height. Good quench as many have already posted is somewhere around 040 to 045.

Is your calculator taking into account the head gasket you are using? It's thickness will have a big effect on quench, you can potentially use a slimmer gasket to improve your quench. This would raise your compression slightly (because you would also make the cumbustion chamber and piston dish closer to each other) unless you opened up the CC's or piston dish a tiny bit more.

[XJoshua]

The head gasket is .045". Then the head shim is .045" and I just turned the deck shave amount into a - number since Im adding block material. I dont know why the calculator needs it as a negative but thats how I munipulated the formulas.

So to tight quench causes ping. Loose quench causes less bang?

[streetpirate]

backwards, tight quench makes for a more efficiant burn, which creates less hot spots in the combustion chamber, which means less detonation

[1bolt]

as streetpirate said...

So you're shimming the head to lower compression? but it's also going to take your quench up. Honestly you might not need to do anything just leave it alone, and put it together the low 9's CR will lower the amount of ping you see and I'd be willing to bet you can run mid grade octane without ping even on hot days. My stroker has good quench and mid 9's compression (higher than yours) and I can get away with 87 octane in winter but I run 93 octane most of the time because anything less will ping under part throttle at high temps and loads.

You have lower compression which will do a lot to reduce your chances of Ping, and 060-ish quench is only 20 thousandths off.

[XJoshua]

You misunderstood me I run 9.07 with the shim on and 9.9ish without the shim.

[1bolt]

I'm pretty sure I understood you, as I said you are shiming the head to lower compression. But It's also adding .045 to your quench. The shim is making your compression lower (better) but your Quench higher (worse)

You MUST stop thinking of Quench and Compression as the same thing, or even interelated things, they are two very separate pieces of the puzzle.

One can be made worse while the other is improved, and vice versa, you want BOTH of them to be within a certain range.

It just so happens that many things you can change (gasket thickness for example) that effect compression can also effect quench. In this case it's worsening your quench and improving your compression.

Anyway I've re-read your earlier posts and there are some glaring errors here.

Math not being my strong suit I only just realized that you have .090" of gasket and shim... It's late and I'm dead tired but I can't see how you could possibly have .066 quench... delete that calculator link.

You said that your piston top sits approximately 0.0615 BELOW deck at TDC. If it was ABOVE DECK by that much you would have good quench. Quench is the amount of space between the HEAD and the PISTON TOP, not the top of the block and the piston top.

.090 and .061 makes your quench .156 or utterly horrible. If your piston tops came up dead even with the block you would get .090 quench, still terrible.

You will need to ditch the shim, and deck the block again. If your piston comes up to deck height, and you use the Mopar gasket with no shim you will have .045 quench ...

You will also have WAY higher compression as a side effect of improving quench, and you'll need to tackle that problem with larger piston dish and/or larger Combustion Chambers (CC's for short).

1) establish your quench height without thinking about compression
2) buy the silvolites with the thick tops and have them dished to lower your compression into pump gas territory.
3) if you're brave hog out your combustion chambers to lower compression even more.

The closer to 9 you get the lower octane fuel you can use
The closer to .040 quench the better.
Once again these two things are not related to each other even though one sometimes gets worse when you improve the other.

[XJoshua]

I was stating how far the piston sits bellow the deck for Flash. So he could do his math to get my static compression ratio I believe.

Well wouldnt a head shim and a thinner gasket be a cheaper fix? And get me to around 9.5. I would be moving my quench to a safer point to help eliminate ping but Id be forced to run Premo Gas which isnt a big deal.

[1bolt]

Man I don't know how to explain it better, maybe someone else can.

I made a mistake in the post when I said to just put it together, I didn't do the math. and I assumed your quench number was accurate.

It's not. If you measured the piston top at TDC in the real world and it was DOWN in the bore then that calculator you used is junk.

I have no idea how good or bad your engine would run with good compression but with quench .110" out of factory specs... The 4.0 is a "quench theory" based engine design. So I suspect you would have less than ideal combustion, lower power and fuel mileage and ping problems.

I hope you stop listening to the engine builder who suggested a head shim, I recomend you re-read all the posts in this thread, especially Flash's posts and Mud Dawgs.

Really re-read them and understand what compression is, and what quench is, and make sure you know exactly how changing one can effect the other.

For a 4.0 stroker there's really only ONE (simple and cheap) way to get good quench and keep the compression ratio down in the low 9's and that's been spelled out for you by at least three people. Good luck man, I'm not saying any of this to bust on you.

[XJoshua]

Well I read Flash's web link and from reading that I think after I figure actual compression and ditch the clac I can move on from there. It seems like my deck height is fairly large instead of what the page suggests of sitting at the actual deck mine is largely bellow.

Deck height + compressed head gasket thickness = quench

Tighter quench less chance of carbon build up and better air fuel mixture.

So I guess my question now is what formula can I use to determing my compression?

I know what Ive been told and thats grind away the piston dish and combstion chamber. Problem is no one will touch the pistons because they dont want to unbalance them. So I had the guy just polish the dish to get a few '0Xcc out of it. The head I can accurately attempt myself since I have a few good tools for volum. As far as getting 4 more cc safetly out of it is a long shot.

The head shim was a suggestion NAPA gave me. Funny part though my machinist said slap it together and it will run fine on midgrade with a 10.5:1. So the next motor isnt going to him.

[1bolt]

Deck height + compressed head gasket thickness = quench

Correct IF your piston is dead even with the deck at TDC. Sounds like you need to deck your block by 0.60 or so to achieve this, but before you do that you also need a piston that has much larger CC dish, or one that can be dished deeper. Again I think the Keith Black Silvo's that can be dished 22 cc's have already been suggested by a couple people but you are stuck on the pistons you already have... You either need to get over that chuck them out or CC the combustion chambers on the head side. Exactly how much you must hog out will be determined by your measurements AFTER you deck the block, to get your quench close to spec.

If you change your mind and buy silvo's be sure you wait to deck the block AFTER you measure how far down the new pistons tops are below deck. They aren't necessarily all the same.

Keep reading, go get four wheeler magazine for November they have an article on stroking the 4.0 with a BUNCH of info that is uncommonly detailed and well explained (for a mag)... including how to calculate your compression ratio and also a fine explanation of quench. It's all info that's available on the web (notably Dino Savva's site) but nicely organized with some diagrams and well written explanations.

[XJoshua]

I bought silvos in the first place. First were silvo 30 over but my block needed bore'd further so I got silvo 60 over.

[XJoshua]

Well five cancer sticks later. I gave McCabe Motorsports a call and he is gone til the 16th. So the 16th Ill be giving him a call and get a quote and drop it off. Get it done then buy some porable heaters for my garage and get it in.

Im going to get a quote on decking, piston cc and balancing. Ill ask for a compression of 9.3:1 so I can run 91octane. Hopefully I can still use the .045 headgasket.

So yea I guess Ill read some more articles while its gone and get my intake setup done.

[alex22]

I am planing on building my own 4.6 stroker so I spent the last few days reading through this thread. I have a few questions and comments to make about what I have seen.

First and foremost, your compression and quench isues. I know this sounds like a stupid question. When you pluged your engine's stats into the calculation for compression ratio are you sure you made the deck height a negative, or add the compressed volume. You would be suprised how often something as simple as that has caused a giant headache. Quench is part of what causes the rapid increace in cylinder presure at TDC. If you slow the combustion down do the milisecond, the spark plug ignights a flame colonel that travels outward. When the piston comes to TDC it squishes the fuel/air mix out and shoots it towards the colonel. That causes a much more rapid rise in cylinder presure.
Last week I disassembled a 2002 4.0 and the pistons were between .015 and .020 in the hole, giving it a quench height of .071.

Next, I saw that the issue of the cams going south in a hurry. It seems like it was droped without a definitive conclusion. Of those who had their cam go bad how many were using a roller lifter and how many were using flat tappet lifters. also were you using a synthetic oil? The reason I ask is because synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine will cause big problems. Flat tappet cams need zinc and a few other additives in the oil. The zinc was phased out of the oil back when catalytic converts became standard. The zinc, which is needed by the cam but it damages the cats. As you can see this puts jeep owners in a "damnened if you do a engine. There are a few companies producing this type of oil. Joe Gibbs (http://shop.joegibbsracingoil.com/Content/product-28-1-19.htm?VPID=29&TPID=30) and AmsOil (http://www.amsoil.com/) make the oil with it mixed in. Comp cams (http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=159-12&Category_Code=) and a few other companies make an additive you can add to conventional oil. Just my 2 cents for the day.

~Alex

[Frank Z]

Im going to get a quote on decking, piston cc and balancing. Ill ask for a compression of 9.3:1 so I can run 91octane. Hopefully I can still use the .045 headgasket.

So yea I guess Ill read some more articles while its gone and get my intake setup done.FWIW, My final numbers are in Colmn III

http://i7.tinypic.com/35jaycj.jpg

[1bolt]

Next, I saw that the issue of the cams going south in a hurry. It seems like it was droped without a definitive conclusion. Of those who had their cam go bad

I'd say this has pretty much solidly been attributed to the lower ZDDP in current oils... At least that the best theory so far. It's interesting that the failures tend to happen 15 or 20k miles down the road, after the cam break in additives supplied with the cams have been changed out a time or three. Both Crane and Comp cams have been called into question, I believe most of that is simply the fact that they are two of the most popular makers.

There are no roller lifters for the 4.0, although some on the strokers yahoo group have gotten some Mopar V8 roller lifters to physically fit inside, none have been run due to the lack of a roller cam. Roller lifters will eat a normal cam.

Joe Gibbs racing makes extremely expensive oil for racing, it has little to no detergent, and is thus, a bad idea to run on a street engine.
That goes for basically all race oil's as they are formulated for engines that will be torn down regularly.

One of the additives you're thinking of is GM EOS which can be added at every change to boost levels of ZDDP. EOS is now being marketed under the AC Delco flag and is probably going to be available at parts stores instead of just GM service counters. This info is direct from the strokers list, which seems to be on the cutting edge of issues like this.

[streetpirate]

Just make sure to break in motors on rotella 15w-45, tons of zinc, and $9-12 a gallon jug. it might give you a little lifter noise if its real cold out until the engine warms up though.

[Dr. Dyno]

I am planing on building my own 4.6 stroker so I spent the last few days reading through this thread.

I saw that the issue of the cams going south in a hurry. It seems like it was dropped without a definitive conclusion. Of those who had their cam go bad how many were using a roller lifter and how many were using flat tappet lifters. also were you using a synthetic oil? The reason I ask is because synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine will cause big problems.

Yeah, I wish I knew that before my Crane 753905 cam failed last year after running it in my 4.6 stroker for 34,000 miles. That's the highest mileage to a cam failure in a stroker so far. I only had one bad cam lobe (no.6 intake) and the no.6 intake tappet was cupped, while the no.6 exhaust tappet was collapsed with no wear at all. I used Castrol GTX for the first 3000 miles before switching to Mobil 1 for the next 31,000. The engine was clean enough inside to eat dinner off it so I was very pissed at the time that the cam went south.
I swapped my old stock cam back in with new lifters, stock valve springs, and Yella Terra roller rockers. I've been very happy with this set-up and the valvetrain is still quiet (knock on wood) after almost 10,000 miles since the cam swap (approaching 44,000 miles on my stroker).

[Flash]

I'd say this has pretty much solidly been attributed to the lower ZDDP in current oils... At least that the best theory so far. It's interesting that the failures tend to happen 15 or 20k miles down the road, after the cam break in additives supplied with the cams have been changed out a time or three. Both Crane and Comp cams have been called into question, I believe most of that is simply the fact that they are two of the most popular makers.

There are no roller lifters for the 4.0, although some on the strokers yahoo group have gotten some Mopar V8 roller lifters to physically fit inside, none have been run due to the lack of a roller cam. Roller lifters will eat a normal cam.


Joe Gibbs racing makes extremely expensive oil for racing, it has little to no detergent, and is thus, a bad idea to run on a street engine.
That goes for basically all race oil's as they are formulated for engines that will be torn down regularly.

One of the additives you're thinking of is GM EOS which can be added at every change to boost levels of ZDDP. EOS is now being marketed under the AC Delco flag and is probably going to be available at parts stores instead of just GM service counters. This info is direct from the strokers list, which seems to be on the cutting edge of issues like this.




1Bolt,
I Just need to clarify one thing, the Roller Lifter that have been figured out and fit in the 4.0L are designed for a AMC V8 not Chry.


Flash.

[Flash]

Well five cancer sticks later. I gave McCabe Motorsports a call and he is gone til the 16th. So the 16th Ill be giving him a call and get a quote and drop it off. Get it done then buy some porable heaters for my garage and get it in.

Im going to get a quote on decking, piston cc and balancing. Ill ask for a compression of 9.3:1 so I can run 91octane. Hopefully I can still use the .045 headgasket.

So yea I guess Ill read some more articles while its gone and get my intake setup done.

Hold on XJoshua, let make sure of your compression ratio and you quench before you disassemble it unnecessarily.

What is this about double head gasket or shimming it?

Give me your spec's and i will give you your Exact compression ratio(static)

Head gasket thickness
distance of piston from piston to top of deck.(at top dead center)
How many CC of volume are in the dish of the piston.
How many CC of cylinder head volume.
And bore and stroke.

With all of this I can get you your Static Compression Ratio and you Quench hight.

I haven't been around sense the NAXJA CRASH but i can get it done this weekend if you will double check your specs and give them to me again.

and after that if your still wanting to have some FUN we can figure out DCR.;)

Flash.

[alex22]

1bolt, do you have more info about the roller lifter conversion in the 4.0. I Do plan on breaking my engine in on Gibbs BR then useing the additive in the rest of the changes. The Gibbs oil is expensive, but the shop I work in is a dealer for gibbs, so its not as expensive for me.
My brother's truck (67 Dodge D100 with a 318) had a cam loose a lobe and eat a lifter. It is a COMP cam and he used GTX oil in it for every change, between 2 and 3 months. He put a new lifter in it and its runing fine, it was an intake so its not building excesesive cyl pressure.

[Flash]

1bolt, do you have more info about the roller lifter conversion in the 4.0. I Do plan on breaking my engine in on Gibbs BR then useing the additive in the rest of the changes. The Gibbs oil is expensive, but the shop I work in is a dealer for gibbs, so its not as expensive for me.
My brother's truck (67 Dodge D100 with a 318) had a cam loose a lobe and eat a lifter. It is a COMP cam and he used GTX oil in it for every change, between 2 and 3 months. He put a new lifter in it and its runing fine, it was an intake so its not building excesesive cyl pressure.

If you are real interest in the Hyd Roller Cam and Lifter set up for the 4.0L................
Here is a link that will get you up to speed on the subject.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=918403


Flash.

[Flash]

OK here are the spec' that i have gather from your posts and some i had to guess, such as head cc. I got that one from my spare head.

Bore: 3.935"

stroke: 3.895'

Combustion chamber volume[cc]: 57cc

Head gasket bore: 4.00"

Head gasket thickness: .043"

Piston to deck clearance .0615"

Piston Dish Volume: 12.2cc

Making your SCR of 9.60 and your Quench height at .1045"
Now if you increase the piston dish volume from 12.2 to 20cc
Your compression ratio would drop to 8.91 but you Quench height would still be at .1045
Because it is measure at to top of the piston not the bowl area.......Makes sence?

Now if you shaved or Deck the block .020" your compression would go up from 8.91 to 9.25 and you Quench would go down(better) to .0845

Now lets say you shaved the head instead of the block .020"

Your compression ratio would still go from 8.91 to 9.25 But your quench would stay the same at .1045"

Now as you can see, alltho quench seams to fallow compression ratio, it really doesnt.

With your spec's and sence you live at high altitude, you might get away with 9.60 compression ratio but the Quench is not good at .1045



Flash.

[alex22]

An interesting read, I have a few phone calls to make.

I just realized I kinda hijacked this thread, so back to the point...

EDIT: after posting i looked up and saw that flash had posted while i was typing my responce. I'll leave this up anyway.



XJoshua, I went back a few pages and joted down your engine's specs and ran this (http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php) compression calculator. I used Post #172's info and the deck height stated in post #203. Did I read correctly that your piston is .0615 in the hole? This would be the deepest piston ive ever seen. The cheap accurate way to measure piston depth is to a cheap set of calipers (a $20 pair will do) and measure to the piston over the wrist pin at TDC. The compression ratio the progame gave was 9.04:1

correct me if i'm wrong on any of this information.
6 cyl
bore: 3.935
stroke: 3.895
head volume: 56cc
piston volume: 12.2cc
head gasket: .045
Deck height: .0615
(actually piston depth)


*for this program a dished piston's volume is positive and a positive piston height means it is below the deck surface.

Just wondering, what is the labor rate of the shop you are using?
~Alex

[Flash]

An interesting read, I have a few phone calls to make.

I just realized I kinda hijacked this thread, so back to the point...

EDIT: after posting i looked up and saw that flash had posted while i was typing my responce. I'll leave this up anyway.



XJoshua, I went back a few pages and joted down your engine's specs and ran this (http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php) compression calculator. I used Post #172's info and the deck height stated in post #203. Did I read correctly that your piston is .0615 in the hole? This would be the deepest piston ive ever seen. The cheap accurate way to measure piston depth is to a cheap set of calipers (a $20 pair will do) and measure to the piston over the wrist pin at TDC. The compression ratio the progame gave was 9.04:1

correct me if i'm wrong on any of this information.
6 cyl
bore: 3.935
stroke: 3.895
head volume: 56cc
piston volume: 12.2cc
head gasket: .045
Deck height: .0615
(actually piston depth)


*for this program a dished piston's volume is positive and a positive piston height means it is below the deck surface.

Just wondering, what is the labor rate of the shop you are using?
~Alex


OK, This is a little bit disturbing and so i re did the compression ratio manually (With a calculator and math:read: :shocked: :D

First off the formula......... .7854 x Bore x Bore X Stroke +Deck volume (between piston and the deck suffice a T.D.C) + head gasket volume+ head Volume.....Devided by volume above the piston at T.D.C.


Soooo
Displacement in cc
.7854 x 3.935 x 3.935 x 3.895=47.36 x 16.387(Converts Cubic inches to Cubic Centimeters)=776.22[cc] This is the cc of the Eng stroke.

Piston to deck volume in cc
.7854 x 3.935 x 3.935 x.0615= .747 x 16.387 = 12.25 + piston dish volume 12.2= 24.45cc

Head gasket cc
,7854 x 4.00 x 4.00 x .045 =56 x 16.387 =9.26cc

Head cc of 56cc

Now, total volume is 776.22 + 24.45 + 9.26 + 56 = 865.93cc
Volume above piston at T.D.C is 24.45 + 9.26 + 56 = 89.71cc

"Compression Ratio' is figured by total volume divided by volume at T.D.C so........
865.93 Divided by 89.71 = 9.65

With my computer compression program, and using alex22 found numbers it cam up with a compression ratio of 9.65136 and using the math above the exact compression ratio was 9.652547

alex22, please don't thing that I'm picking on you Because I'M NOT. There have been to calculation that have come up with a basically 9.00 compression ratio and i had to be sure that my present Internet program was accurate and that i was Putin the data in correctly.
I have showed all of my work, so if i have calculated something wrong, there will be some one to correct me. And i encourage this as it will help me decide if i might want to consider a different compression calculator.
I like the one i have because i can figure out SCR as well as DCR, (if a intake valve, close degree can be had.) And it take 5 minutes to do the the figure instead Well a whole lot more time to do the math above.:confused1


Flash

[alex22]

I included all of the info and the link for the program because the answer was so diferent than the rest of your calculations. I will do the calculation for compression ratio with the calculation we use at work. I'm pretty sure its the same as the one you used.

~Alex

[Flash]

I included all of the info and the link for the program because the answer was so diferent than the rest of your calculations. I will do the calculation for compression ratio with the calculation we use at work. I'm pretty sure its the same as the one you used.

~Alex

Hay Alex, go here.

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

then go down to the bottom of the page. You will find 2 different down load.......I thing that I'm using the first on in the list.
they are not ones that you can us on the Internet, you have to down load it to you computer.........now i thing about it, i thing i down loaded the 2nt on because i was afraid my computer wouldn't have the soft ware needed to run it.


Flash.

[XJoshua]

From what I was told the 96-98 ps motor bracket will work with the 99+ intake. Well it doesnt. The intake mounts are about 1/2" further apart. So it will bolt up fine to a renix. So couldnt I just grind away the bottom mount on the intake and call it fine since it works fine for the top mount?

[Frank Z]

My 97 pump bolted up just fine to my 99 intake...which is bolted onto my 96 block. What the hell are you doing to that poor motor?!?!:jester:

[XJoshua]

I really have no clue as to what the hell Im doing now. I think all my sanity is gone.

I got a 96 mount from a member off a 96 motor. It work for the motor but not the intake. So yea I have no clue why the hell it wont fit on my 99 intake.

[Frank Z]

http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6355

[Flash]

Well five cancer sticks later. I gave McCabe Motorsports a call and he is gone til the 16th. So the 16th Ill be giving him a call and get a quote and drop it off. Get it done then buy some porable heaters for my garage and get it in.

Im going to get a quote on decking, piston cc and balancing. Ill ask for a compression of 9.3:1 so I can run 91octane. Hopefully I can still use the .045 headgasket.

So yea I guess Ill read some more articles while its gone and get my intake setup done.


So are you going back together or have you deside to take it to McCabe Motorsports?

Flash

[XJoshua]

I talked to McCabe Motorsports today and for: decking the block, blancing the rotating assembly, mounting/unmounting pistons, cc the pistons, install freeze plugs(again), cam bearings(new to replace the already new), and tanking. Im looking at $450. Ugh So far after that I will have payed over $1300 in machining. DONT TAKE YOUR MOTOR TO BALCHUCK IF YOU LIVE IN PUEBLO!!!

Then after that smooth sailing. Im dropping the motor off next thursday if I can find a ride. Also my dad failed to pay for my insurance which I have given him money for so I no longer have insurance and must drive the safe long way to work to avoid accidents and police. Also my mom wont let me take her explorer since I dont have insurance on my vehicle. Which doesnt make since, since I thought allstate allowed others to drive vehicles which arent their own vehicles as long as the vehicle youre driving has insurance. Ughh.

So give me til the end of novemeber and itll be XXXXing done! I hope my 5m-ge into a 6m-ge goes smoother. I just have to deal with self adjusting valve lifters is the only problem I can see.

[Flash]

I talked to McCabe Motorsports today and for: decking the block, blancing the rotating assembly, mounting/unmounting pistons, cc the pistons, install freeze plugs(again), cam bearings(new to replace the already new), and tanking. Im looking at $450. Ugh So far after that I will have payed over $1300 in machining. DONT TAKE YOUR MOTOR TO BALCHUCK IF YOU LIVE IN PUEBLO!!!

Then after that smooth sailing. Im dropping the motor off next thursday if I can find a ride. Also my dad failed to pay for my insurance which I have given him money for so I no longer have insurance and must drive the safe long way to work to avoid accidents and police. Also my mom wont let me take her explorer since I dont have insurance on my vehicle. Which doesnt make since, since I thought allstate allowed others to drive vehicles which arent their own vehicles as long as the vehicle youre driving has insurance. Ughh.

So give me til the end of novemeber and itll be XXXXing done! I hope my 5m-ge into a 6m-ge goes smoother. I just have to deal with self adjusting valve lifters is the only problem I can see.

Please tell me that when you said "cc the piston" you mean machining the bowl deeper.
Becouse i don't thing it's worth it, if thats all they are going to do.

Flash

[XJoshua]

Yes he will be machinig the bowl deeper and decking the block. He quoted me th highest prices. So itll probally be much chaper.

[Flash]

Yes he will be machinig the bowl deeper and decking the block. He quoted me th highest prices. So itll probally be much chaper.

Cool, :yelclap: :wave: :D


Flash

[XJoshua]

Alright got the engine disassembled. And Im walking the clean as hell crankshaft to its clean resting area and trip over a wrench. I think I might have shit myself. All I thought about was save the crankshaft. So I fall and land on my back then the crankshart weights impel my chest. I go two bruises on my chest now. So just goes to show I would die for my jeep or engine.

[jeepinwi]

IMO, you are getting RAPED on machining costs. My entire machine bill was $409. That included boring the cylinders, installing freeze plugs, installing pistons onto rods, refinishing big end of rods, install cam bearings, flattening head, 3 angle valve job, reassembling head, and steam cleaning everything.

There is a point where building a stroker yourself is pointless when you can buy a Titan engine for not a whole lot more money. Plus you get a nice warranty on that engine.

[XJoshua]

I dont rember the the original price but I think CO might just be pricey.

Ill post up my prices from balchuck when I get off work.

Hopefully the 6M converstion costs less on my next car sinceits just a basic rebuild. 2.8L 5M-GE motor with a 7M-GTE crank and rods to make it a 3.0L 6M-GE. Funny how american motor crank swaps make more displacement then import motors.

[alex22]

XJoshua, just curious, what is the shop's rate per hour?

[XJoshua]

The shop in town charged per item.

So heres a small list.

6 cylinger bore and hone = 78
crank grind = 85
balncing 165
fit valves 96
3 angle grind 75
cleaning 48

Thats not everything because Im doing this on my phone but thats for most of the large things.

The McCabe price he's going to figure tonight and call me in the morning. Estimated 450 for unmount and mount of pistons, cc pistons cups, check deck height, doing some math, and balancing. But since its already balanced he said he wont charge for that so its probally 300.

So after he gets it done he'll call and either talk about machining the pistons for 300ish or buying another set of pistons for 200ish with the correct size. I told him I have a few requirements. 1.) keep it as cheap as possible, 2.) 9.5 comp max, 3.) and make it run Premo fuel or mid grade.

So hopefully we can get it done for $600. wish it could be $500. Ugh now I wont be able to move out since rent will kill me and Ill get charged storage.

[XJoshua]

Alright I get my engine the friday after the upcomming friday.

Rough guess estimates.
He didnt tell me how much he is going to deck the block so assumming its going to be .010" I get these results with the pistons being machined to 20cc in the form of a circular cup instead of a D.

Compression 9.5:1
Quench .0845 with a difference of .011 from stock

While working on it he looked at alot of the work and was very picky. He is going to fix the poor job on the connection rods to make them more straight. The part that connects to the crank wasnt cut perfectly and said I could still get away with it but told him to clean it up anyways.

Grand total: $680 to $720 depending on how much needs cut from the rods.

What was done:
Purchase Cam Bearings
Install cam Bearings
Wash Block
Recon Rods
CC Pistons
Machine Pistons
Deck Block
Balance Pistons

So Id say Itll run a good 18 years more if taken care of. He also kept me within a 700 dollar total which made me happy. Got it to 9.5:1 compression and says I could probally run MidGrade but Premo would be better. Also he inspected everything was a great guy and values his work. Next engine is surely going to him.

[Flash]

Alright I get my engine the friday after the upcomming friday.

Rough guess estimates.
He didnt tell me how much he is going to deck the block so assumming its going to be .010" I get these results with the pistons being machined to 20cc in the form of a circular cup instead of a D.

Compression 9.5:1
Quench .0845 with a difference of .011 from stock

While working on it he looked at alot of the work and was very picky. He is going to fix the poor job on the connection rods to make them more straight. The part that connects to the crank wasnt cut perfectly and said I could still get away with it but told him to clean it up anyways.

Grand total: $680 to $720 depending on how much needs cut from the rods.

What was done:
Purchase Cam Bearings
Install cam Bearings
Wash Block
Recon Rods
CC Pistons
Machine Pistons
Deck Block
Balance Pistons

So Id say Itll run a good 18 years more if taken care of. He also kept me within a 700 dollar total which made me happy. Got it to 9.5:1 compression and says I could probally run MidGrade but Premo would be better. Also he inspected everything was a great guy and values his work. Next engine is surely going to him.





:party: :D


So would you post up your spec sheet when you get the motor...........Ya i now...hasta

Glad to here they put a little bit more lov'ns in to your stoker:smootch: :yelclap: then the ether place:mad:

Flash

[XJoshua]

:bawl::bawl::bawl: My motor isnt done today! Robbie was suppose to call me back tonight, but didnt. He was working on the pistons this morning and said he would be done by 6. Its 7:46. I hope he calls tomorrow. I want my baby back and assembled.

As for details. I hope to have it assembled by the end of november and in by mid december. Best christmas present ever!!!! Its going to suck installing it. Cold weather. Cold hands. Cold engine. Runny nose. But Ill be happy. Just need a lift and tyres and Ill be green.

Flash Ill get the spec sheet and a rough cut of my total costs up soon.

[XJoshua]

Well I picked up almost everything today. Took the cam up to make sure it fit and turns out my cam is bent 10 what ever 10 is. So Im buying another and then returning the old. Also the front cam bearing bore has a ridge which compresses my bearing. So Im just going to get the cam journals polished so itll fit and replace the front cam bearing every 80k miles. No biggie might be sold or become a trail rig by then.

Pistons look kick ass. Ill get pics up after turkey day and a spec sheet.

[XJoshua]

Piston Cup 21.6cc
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/img058.jpg

Beautiful Assembly
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/img059.jpg

Re-Resized
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/img057.jpg

Holiday Season Snow Flakes
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/img060.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/XJoshua/img062.jpg

Ill get specs tomorrow since Im on paid holiday until monday. Love my job.

[Dr. Dyno]

Josh,
The pistons look nice but they don't have a flat portion that corresponds with the flat portion of the head where quench takes place, so I hope you don't run into detonation problems due to a lack of quench.

[XJoshua]

He wrote the specs for the new quench(including the distance from top of piston to bottom of dish) which is why he just cut minimal off the block to get it straight. So Im going to plug that info in now and see what happens.

With my quench be rediculously bad in the begining. This might ai me.