Adapting cardan joint to stock slip yoke

[XJguy]

Can I adapt a stock slip yoke to the cardan joint centering ball joint, or will I need a new yoke. Is that ball joint even necessary for a rear driveshaft application.

Do they even have such a slip yoke?
TIA

XJguy

PS: dont want, have the time or resources right now for a SYE kit right now.

[Slip Kid]

ooh finally. I've been thinking of this too recently, a lot. It would have to be better than stock. wouldn't have to worry about clearance in the yoke. You'd obviously need a much shorter driveshaft. But the way I look at it, it has to be cheaper than an SYE.

so will this work??

please don't tell me the advantages of a real SYE, I've heard it all. I wanna know if this idea would work!

[RCP Phx]

It can be done with the right parts.
http://4xshaft.com/images/db_cardan.jpg

[XJMark]

With what I've read and seen on the subject I can't imagine how this would work properly. You're still going to have all that weight on the end of a 6" long output shaft (even more weight with the double cardan).

Is a stronger bearing being added to the output shaft on the TC to hold all that weight? This may fix vibes but I don't think it's going to be any good for the T-case. The idea is to remove the slip action from the horizontal plane at the T-case and move it to the angular plane at the driveshaft.

Is there more to this than the picture let's on? I've been looking for the inexpensive way out on this myself so trust me I'm not bashing any ideas I'm open to anything sensible.

Mark

[XJguy]

I plan to leave the t-case stock. I dont see how a SYE will lessen any weight on the t-case.

RCP Phx, where are those yokes from? Will they fit a NP242? Where can I buy one? You think I can get one from any driveshaft shop? Thanks.

Ahh, never mind followed the source, Tom Woods. But they say they do not recommend what I want to do for the NP242, I wonder why? Well by all accounts I should have had bad vibes by now at 5.5" of lift but I do not, so I am willing to try it regardless of what they recommend...I dont need $1000.00 worth of driveshaft, its more than what I paid for the Jeep!

XJguy

[JJ13]

I have been running that for almost a year now. It works fine for mall wheeling. Ran me about 170.00 for parts and the labor to have my shaft shortened. Yes, I just said have my shaft shortened.:D

[XJguy]

How much lift do you have? Ill be running 8-9"

Where did you get the yoke and how much?

XJguy

[JJ13]

I am at 6.5 lift, and I believe the yoke was around 50 bux...lemme know if you can't find one I can go to the local driveshaft place and find out who makes it.

[Gojeep]

I thought about it too but have heard that if you have a lot of rear travel and use it the whole extension housing can brake due to the extra weight. The SYE shortens the leverage by removing the extension housing bring it closer to the main bearing support. I think at lifts under 5"-6" and non rock hopping sojourns it would be fine as no someone that has had this setup for a number of years now without problems and fits into the above category.

[mmyers]

For the little extra money for a SYE, it will save your fluid if you break a rear shaft and have to remove it.

There is a guy on pirate with a new AA 231 SYE for $200.

[TRNDRVR]

I this what you're thinking of?
http://www.relia.net/~dfrazier/driveshaft.jpg
Yes. It can be done, and I ran one for about 2 years.
I believe the 3 yokes pictured above are like the ones that are manufactured by a certain drive line company out in the Arizona area. They're are a 2 piece welded and machined product that's prone to failure over time and abuse. The one I ran is from Inland Empire (http://www.iedls.com/) It's a one piece cast and machined product. It's designed to accept the 1310 ujoint CV unit. I believe you can either order it direct from them, or you can get your favorite driveline shop to get it for you. This can be used as an alternative to a SYE for mildly lifted rigs. The reason I no longer run it is I exceeded its capabilities with the height of my lift.
I hope this helps.
Thanks,
Dan.

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by XJguy
I plan to leave the t-case stock. I dont see how a SYE will lessen any weight on the t-case.

RCP Phx, where are those yokes from? Will they fit a NP242? Where can I buy one? You think I can get one from any driveshaft shop? Thanks.

Ahh, never mind followed the source, Tom Woods. But they say they do not recommend what I want to do for the NP242, I wonder why? Well by all accounts I should have had bad vibes by now at 5.5" of lift but I do not, so I am willing to try it regardless of what they recommend...I dont need $1000.00 worth of driveshaft, its more than what I paid for the Jeep!

XJguy


It isn't meant to lessen the weight, but rather move it closer to the bearing to end runout.
You can probably address some of the vibration that is being caused by extreme angles beyond 15 degrees, but as for runout....it won't do a thing.
Rich.... There is NO SHORTCUT for a proper operating SYE. It doesn't stop vibes....it addresses the REAL reason for the vibes, and saves the rear bearing in the Tcase.

How much is a new Tcase worth up there? I've blown apart two before I got smart and figured out what I needed was a SYE kit to begin with.

[BLUTO]

This thread is interesting.... After adding 2* shims to rr springs and dropping TC 1"; I have a little vibration left at about 70-75mph. I run 3" of lift on my 2000XJ, AW4, 242, and 31 x 10.5 x 15 tires. I don't intend on getting much wilder on this DD. If I could fab this driveshaft in the shop, it would save me enough money to buy gears and a posi. I probably won't do much hardcore wheeling for a while (I'm in the midst of a "de-wifeing" mod.....and some of you guys know how expensive that can be
:eek: :mad: !). I need this car to get to work and back day in and day out,...so it has to stay in one piece.
On the other hand, would I be harming the TC by installing this double-cardan jointed driveshaft? I'm looking to get rid of the vibes that are supposed to tear-up our drivetrain in the first place.:confused:
If I was to do something like this, would I want to delete the TC drop and alter the driveshaft from its factory original position? I don't know if I can tangle with a SYE conversion on my 242 (taking TC apart doesn't look like much fun), that means I have labor charges on top of $500 for a SYE and driveshaft! This mod looks more like something I can handle and afford at this time. But, I won't trash my TC to save a buck either..... I was just hoping to get my gears and posi before winter ;)
Thanks for any input you can offer,
BLUTO :)

[XJguy]

I hope to gain a few things by doing this mod. I hope add length to the driveshaft by adding all this extra equipement and I hope to avoid any binding issues that I may encounter when flexed up. At 5.5" of lift I had no vibes at all but I did have less slip yoke engagement. But now I am in the process of moving up to 8" and I want to take care of the problems I forsee before its too late, Moab is just around the corner.

My XJ has 135k miles, if the t-case gets damaged I wont feel so bad (though I dont desire this), since its probably in not in that great shape anyway, I already had to open it up when I bought the Jeep to replace some internal plastic components.

XJguy

[XJguy]

Originally posted by TRNDRVR
I this what you're thinking of?
http://www.relia.net/~dfrazier/driveshaft.jpg
Yes. It can be done, and I ran one for about 2 years.
I believe the 3 yokes pictured above are like the ones that are manufactured by a certain drive line company out in the Arizona area. They're are a 2 piece welded and machined product that's prone to failure over time and abuse. The one I ran is from Inland Empire (http://www.iedls.com/) It's a one piece cast and machined product. It's designed to accept the 1310 ujoint CV unit. I believe you can either order it direct from them, or you can get your favorite driveline shop to get it for you. This can be used as an alternative to a SYE for mildly lifted rigs. The reason I no longer run it is I exceeded its capabilities with the height of my lift.
I hope this helps.
Thanks,
Dan.

That is exactly what I want to do. So at 8" you were forced to get a SYE? 8" is what I am moving to and the reason I want to do this mod, are you saying its not a good solution? I have the NP242.

XJguy

[TRNDRVR]

Originally posted by XJguy
That is exactly what I want to do. So at 8" you were forced to get a SYE? 8" is what I am moving to and the reason I want to do this mod, are you saying its not a good solution? I have the NP242.

XJguy
I should have said that at 8" it would be at its limit. I never used it at that height. I guess it could probably be done.
The other reason I have an SYE is that I was able to go to RE's garage sale they had back in June 2001. I picked through a couple of different boxes and eventually came up with the parts to do an SYE for a mere $20.00. I also run the 242. I sold it to cbremer off the JU board. But I know he surfs here also using the same screen name. I think he also went to an SYE and may have this thing available. Can't promise that though.
Anymore questions, let me know. Good luck!
Thanks,
Dan.

[XJoachim]

A buddy of mine had exactly this setup at 6" lift and they couldn't fix the vibes. The 4x4 shop that did this also added a second CV at the other end of the driveshaft but it did nothing to stop the vibes. After trashing the driveshaft and installing a SYE all vibes were gone.

My opinion on this: Save your money and do a SYE

[cbremer]

yup... i bought dan's (TRNDRVR) shaft that he has pictured and ran it while saving my pennies for a SYE and driveshaft. I used it for nearly 8 months with the appropriate shims and no t-case drop and ot worked beautifully. unfortunately (for XJGuy ;) ), i did sell it after I upgraded my driveline. if you could have a local shop build a shaft like the one pictured, go for it.

[TRNDRVR]

Originally posted by cbremer
yup... i bought dan's (TRNDRVR) shaft that he has pictured and ran it while saving my pennies for a SYE and driveshaft. I used it for nearly 8 months with the appropriate shims and no t-case drop and it worked beautifully. unfortunately (for XJGuy ;) ), i did sell it after I upgraded my driveline. if you could have a local shop build a shaft like the one pictured, go for it. :) :) :)

[BLUTO]

So far I have read that there MAY be a problem with excess stress placed upon the output shaft bearings, causing premature failure. I also have heard that they "worked beautifully" and got rid of most or all vibes. I've heard that on smaller (<4") lifts there shouldn't be any issues, especially if there is only moderate wheeling and not a lot of rockclimbing. I've also heard on some >6" lifts that they didn't help much.
Does anybody else with <4" lift and moderate to light wheeling have any input on this? This may be the way I go, until I can cough-up $~550 for a SYE.

BLUTO :)

[XJguy]

cbremer, TRNDRVR, do you remember the part number of the special yoke you guys used and did anything have to be modified on the stock driveshaft itself to fit the cardan joint in?

I spoke to someone at Tom Woods and what he told me did not convince me in the least bit that this is not a good option. His most critical element was that if my driveshaft has to be removed I will lose all my fluid....easily remedied with a coke bottle and a large hose clamp or zip tie.

XJguy

[Slip Kid]

I would assume the shaft would need to be shortened. definately, you're adding another u-joint and extra space.

Also, you won't lose all the fluid, a baggie and a rubber band will catch the little bit that comes out. as for driving it fwd without a rear shaft that could be a problem. but in that situation you're screwed anyway right?

I'd be all over this setup if I hadn't just gone through the trouble to get a longer d-shaft. I'll wait till I have vibes, then I'll more than likely try this before a SYE, being the cheap bastid I am.

[BLUTO]

I got hooked-up with a VERY experienced mechanic/parts supplier through Chrysler's transmission labs. I explained what we were discussing on this forum and his experience seems to confirm the various comments and opinions that are being aired on this subject.
Basically, you can use a CV or double-cardan type joint to control vibes on mildly (<4") lifted vehicles. It should work fine. The downside to this is: you are cantilevering more weight off the TC's output shaft and that will cause rear bearing failure on a "quicker than OEM application" frequency. This means that yes, you may have a bearing failure that "could" scramble your TC and other various attached components. Lots of articulation (off-road rock climbing) does not help this scenario along either.
This mod is best used by DD's who see little or none off-roading.

What I got from this is: if you have a lot of $$$ tied-up in your rig OR do a lot of heavy off-roading, then stay with the SYE. If you are on a firm budget, mostly DD, and don't mind the increased risk to your output shaft bearings.....then this may be your set-up!
I will now have to save-up a little longer to get rid of the last of my vibes.

BLUTO :)

[Eagle]

Your summary is mostly correct, but seems to ignore the reality of the two different transfer case output designs. Although the early design doesn't have a bearing at the end of the tail cone, it does have a seal that the slip yoke rides in to help control what Stryker calls "runout" -- that's the more correct term, but I generally think of it and refer to it as "whip." The '96 and newer output shaft has a long and totally unsupported out put shaft. That's more problemmatic.

Many people run up to 4" of lift with no vibes on the old style output design. Virtually nobody runs ANY lift without vibes on the new style. Bluto, if you work at DC you must know that with the new style, even the factory Up Country suspension creates vibes, and the factory authorizes dealers to install transfer case drops to address this (if you cal masking the symptoms "addressing" the problem).

For those who might still consider this, especially with the new style transfer case, just hanging a double-cardan joint off a slip yoke is not the answer. You also want to address that runout issue, and short of a SYE the best way is to shorten the output shaft as much as possible, fix the yoke or double cardan joint as close to the transfer case body as possible (like the RE "hack 'n tap" SYE), and modify the drive shaft to put the slip splines in the drive shaft rather than on the output shaft.

If you have ever watched a u-joint or even a double-cardan joint operate at extreme angles, you know that if the shafts are unrestrained the "knuckle" tends to want to bind up and move laterally (or off the axis of rotation). It's the output bearing that resists and restrains this, and that's why you need the output sgaft to be as short as possible, and the yoke or joint as close to the bearing as possible -- to reduce the effective lever arm of this eccentricity (or runout) on the output shaft.

Originally posted by BLUTO
I got hooked-up with a VERY experienced mechanic/parts supplier through Chrysler's transmission labs. I explained what we were discussing on this forum and his experience seems to confirm the various comments and opinions that are being aired on this subject.
Basically, you can use a CV or double-cardan type joint to control vibes on mildly (<4") lifted vehicles. It should work fine. The downside to this is: you are cantilevering more weight off the TC's output shaft and that will cause rear bearing failure on a "quicker than OEM application" frequency. This means that yes, you may have a bearing failure that "could" scramble your TC and other various attached components. Lots of articulation (off-road rock climbing) does not help this scenario along either.
This mod is best used by DD's who see little or none off-roading.

What I got from this is: if you have a lot of $$$ tied-up in your rig OR do a lot of heavy off-roading, then stay with the SYE. If you are on a firm budget, mostly DD, and don't mind the increased risk to your output shaft bearings.....then this may be your set-up!
I will now have to save-up a little longer to get rid of the last of my vibes.

BLUTO :)

[vintagespeed]

Like some of the other guys have said, this is a retarded idea. Adding a double cardan joint to the end of your slip yoke will only INCREASE your operating angles due to the extra length of the joint itself. All this extra weight at now-increased angles will most likely cause a binding issue & trash your junk. Save up a few dollars more & DO IT RIGHT. If you're looking for a cheap solution to your vibes, check your angles first! Most of the guys that complain about problems haven't even crawled under their Heep to examine it. Then get a SYE & new driveshaft & enjoy the fact that you DID IT RIGHT.

[XJguy]

So basically it all boils down to leverage. The leverage on the stock SY is already at its limits, adding the double cardan joint just gives more weight for the bearings to deal with. I follow you all. But its a short term solution that works, you have to admit that much.

XJguy

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by XJguy
So basically it all boils down to leverage. The leverage on the stock SY is already at its limits, adding the double cardan joint just gives more weight for the bearings to deal with. I follow you all. But its a short term solution that works, you have to admit that much.

XJguy

Unforuatately I have to agree with Vintage, :( , If your over 6" of lift, I believe that's waht were talking about here. The only real solution would be the SYE. I understand what your trying to do, and you say your going to take it easy at MOAB. If you show up this way, please bring an extra Tcase to swap in. Or of course the alternative, is to do it right and get the SYE.

I'm not trying to discount this solution, but I think it would be more approrpiate with lifts under 6".

[BrettM]

you guys need to just sell your XJs and get MJs :D I have 8 inches of lift and don't need an SYE at all, I do have a YJ slip yoke and my Toy8" has a little longer pinion snout. My driveshaft angle is probably still better than the XJ I used to have with 3.5"

[Eagle]

Originally posted by XJguy
So basically it all boils down to leverage. The leverage on the stock SY is already at its limits, adding the double cardan joint just gives more weight for the bearings to deal with. I follow you all. But its a short term solution that works, you have to admit that much.

XJguy

It may be a short term solution, but if it eats your output bearings and destroys the transfer case, I'd hardly consider that to be a short term solution "that works."

[BLUTO]

Originally posted by Eagle
[ Bluto, if you work at DC you must know that with the new style, even the factory Up Country suspension creates vibes, and the factory authorizes dealers to install transfer case drops to address this (if you cal masking the symptoms "addressing" the problem).

[/B]

Yes, I do work at DC....not as an engineer (thank GOD......no put-down intended to engineers; the beancounters really hobble the engineering dept. :mad: ) I am employed as a Pipefitter....I take care of the heat/cool, plumbing, and process piping for approx. 5M FT2 of R&D + offices at Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills, MI
I used to work at Jeep-Truck Engineering about 12 yrs ago,...that's the place to work if you own a Jeep product! ;)
Working there gives me SOME insight as to what is coming-up, I went for a ride in a HEMI WJ on our test track earlier this summer! The new one looks quite a bit like the old one, maybe a little bigger.

I will save my coin and buy the SYE kit, I own a 2000 XJ Limited with only 42K miles. It is my DD and I want to keep it intact (somewhat) until I can afford to make the XJ my second vehicle. Going thru a de-wifeing mod right now, some of you may know how expensive that can be! :eek:

Thankyou for your input Eagle,

BLUTO :)